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I think PB’s are a great blessing to people who are on the covenant path and believe in traditional Mormonism. I question, however, whether it’s healthy for everyone — particularly children like yours, Roy, who may not continue with the LDS church after they leave the nest. Reading a list of promises about an LDS future to people who are not on that path can render the document somewhat ineffective. I am also not sure all things come to pass in PB’s due to no fault of the person. There was a story about Spencer W. Kimball and how at a place he stayed, the woman of the house asked him why her son was killed in a war after being drafted when he was promised a mission and temple marriage in his PB. The story was written as though fielding this question was a hassle for SWK being late at night after a long day.
But what stuck with me is how the PB didn’t come to pass.
I should dust mine off and read it again. I haven’t read it in 10-20 years.
Thanks for sharing those experiences. I didn’t know you were so involved Roy! I enjoyed reading the other responses. One thing I noticed in my last 10 years of community service:
1. In some contexts, LDS people are more committed to above-board interpersonal interactions — less gossiping, more of an interest in relationships and living the code than some of the people in the general local community at large.
2. It’s way easier to get results in the community than in the church. My father-in-law summed up what service in the church is like — it’s like pushing against a rock that won’t move. But we are required to push for the good of our salvation. I found that story depressing, being somewhat of an achiever and careful with where I put my time.
3. There are a lot more kudos to be had at work when you are involved in non-religious service. I was tapped to take on a position of responsibility because apparently I “got noticed” when a non-profit I started ending up with graduate students receiving awards for our organization (“Up and Coming Community Organization” from the mayor, and I received a “Volunteer of the Year” award one year). In my work I received a couple fat bonuses and recognition awards for the 501 (c ) 3 I started on my own dime to give our university’s top notch students real titles (Marketing Manager, Event Manager, Operations Manager) while working with real money, real government organizations, and real world issues and consequences. It was a challenge I put down for myself when I first became a university professor 30 years ago — how I wanted to give students real world experiences working with real money and real consequences. 30 years later I figured out how to do it…
4. There is actually recognition in a lot of community organizations, although in many cases it’s still thankless service like you get in the church. But there seem to be far more efforts to reward and recognize volunteers.
5. In the state where I used to live, there were a lot of religious people who were doing pure community service. So, I often felt like I was rubbing shoulders with church members given these people’s commitment to their religion and living a wholesome life.
6. Community service is way more fun than church service — at least, after you’ve experience church service for many years. I love the fact that I get to pick where I serve, and in many cases, how long. I even get an 8 hour community service day as part of my work benefits, like booking off a personal day or vacation.
DarkJedi wrote:
I’m curious if part of your planning includes writing your own obituary, or at least the general outline. This is something I have considered so that things I most want to be remembered for are more highlighted. It might be interesting (although a bit morbid) to have someone very close write a version as well to see what they highlight. I realize obituaries are not what they once were with the demise of newspapers, but they do still exist online and I frequently read them.
Yes, I wrote bullet points that I would like covered in my
eulogyto give my sister some idea of what to say. But I didn’t make it comprehensive — just a couple key points so she can inject her own personality and ideas into the eulogy. A main point was that I have always believed in dedicating part of my life to service in some format, with a list of ways I have done that. The first 20 years was easy because it was all in the church. The subsequent service efforts were in the community, and were a longer list as I moved around and interacted with different non-profits, including one I started myself.
I didn’t think about the obit — these are normally posted on the funeral home’s website now. Part of what I’m doing is easing the burden of the people left behind me — probably my sister and my brother and my wife.
I would like to read the post above Old_Timer’s post, but it’s a solid wall of text. If you could section it out into paragraphs that would make it more inviting to read. Sorry, I’m a teacher by trade and I guess my standard formatting guidelines for my students when they write essays has gotten the better of me
🙂 I think this is very cool! What I really like is the British or similar accent of the rapper. Not something you always hear. The animation was also very good. I have been thinking about this, and I suppose possessions, for all the joy they bring, shouldn’t stand in the way of you being charitable to others. They should also not function like an addiction. For some people spending money is an addiction rather than a wholesome activity for increasing their happiness. And you have to also mentally prepare yourself to be happy without them. When your heart is so set on possessions that you are miserable without the ability to acquire new ones (necessary, as the novelty of new possessions wears off), that is a negative dependence on possessions. So, within certain limits, I think it’s fair that possessions can bring you a certain amount of happiness.
Thanks for all the interpretations of what might have been running through his mind. He knew I was planning my funeral, so my request that he speak at it would’ve had some context previously. I can only speculate what his deeper motives were for saying “no” however, beyond what he said. It’s one thing I’ll just have to accept. My sister accepted the invitation with pleasure, so all is good that way. At least I have someone capable of giving a very good talk who knows me pretty well. AmyJ wrote:The program was “always” supposed to be driven by the youth (in theory). At the youth level, I wouldn’t know.In our family, we are celebrating the autonomy gains made in self-care, introspection, and community care (family level). And most of those gains were made possible by “boundary work” on my part, Ross Greene’s Explosive Child work, and KC Davis’s “Functional Neurodivergent Living” work [If I could, I would get each one of you a copy of “How to Keep House While Drowning” because it’s the book I needed 5-7 year ago].
For most teens, those gains are milestones reached at 7/10/12 years of age (and my 15 year old is comparing their experience to what they pick up about other teens and agonizing about it).
This has always been the case. The youth are supposed to drive the program. But any youth leader who is worth their salt recognizes that the youth are all at different levels and need different styles of leadership for the program to be successful. In my experience, we could make the youth programs more youth-driven as a Stake Young Men’s president (due to a deeper bench of capable youth). But in most cases, I had to take the lead in planning the activities, the calendar and leading the boys youth organization.
It doesn’t sound like this new youth program has really taken root — are there recognitions in Sacrament meeting for youth who have achievements in the new program?Can anyone articulate what the new program even involves?DarkJedi wrote:
I was recently at a funeral (the guy was LDS but it was not an LDS funeral) where he did the book thing like you describe SD. I had not seen that before, but it was interesting and people did take the books.Were it totally up to me, I would have a private gathering of mostly family and
more like a graveside service (although I’d like to be cremated). Music would consist of a couple of my favorite hymns (Come Thou Fount & How Great Thou Art among them, maybe the only ones). Maybe a prayer, but not a grave dedication (too LDS). I’m OK with allowing time for anybody to say what they’d like and share memories. I see no need and have no desire for someone to conduct, preside, or give any talk or sermon. Because I’d like it to be more informal the church is probably not the setting I’d like, although free is nice (not really free considering all the tithing I have paid). If family wants a food thing after I’m also OK with that but I’d rather not have people put in a lot of work or effort (or expense).
It makes me feel good (if not unoriginal) that you have seen the book thing before. I thought that was an original idea, and may well be to most attendees.
We had a graveside moment for my mother. I hadn’t thought of that. A minister spoke and that was it. We had one even though we were only putting up a headstone and I think we buried her ashes, I can’t remember. I don’t see the point of keeping ashes and handing them down to generations.
I am also think of creating a memory box with all my awards and degrees and other memorabilia so generations hence can remember me for who I was. Too little is left behind by people who have lived sometimes 70 plus years and have nothing permanent left behind for posterity.
At my mother’s funeral, there was a food reception afterwards and there was an open microphone for people to share memories of my mother. Nobody participated because the time felt more like networking and social time, not time to share memories. I think everyone forgot about it. That’s why I think I’d rather have a jazz band like the kind I performed with for 10 years when I was the business motor and instrumentalist in about 4 bands.
Roy wrote:
This would have been much appreciated for my dad’s funeral. My older sister did a ton of work but I think that in a desire to not leave anyone out or not offend anyone, it was left pretty open to anyone doing whatever they wanted.For example, during the family viewing portion we just sat in the room with my dad and some people came up. It made me wonder if we were waiting for something. I stood at the front of the room in an effort to make it seem like SOMEBODY was in charge. When one of my sisters started wailing at my dad’s body, I took the initiative to comfort her and hug her.
I know that my extended LDS family were rather shocked by what they saw. It was not the typical organized, faithful, and hopeful funeral that we are used to seeing. It was like a funeral put on by people that where each contributing their portion ad hoc and each of us were fairly shell-shocked and I’m not sure that anyone was in charge of directing the whole outcome. (the bishop was present but gave us free reign, I think he just wanted to ensure that nothing crazy happened)
Interesting story Roy — can you provide examples of some of the parts of the funeral that shocked you? I am interested. I am noticing that yes, when given free reign, what I am coming up with departs from the usual funeral…interested in the parts that were unusual in your own experience above.
They are probably judgmental toward you. Such is the trend among very orthodox members — myself included when I was committed. I got a feel for how the leadership views me when a former home teacher of mine came over to see me. He is a very loving person, and he told me he wasn’t pleased about what the leadership would say about me in their leadership meetings. I pressed him to tell me what they said, but he clammed up, so I never knew. But it was probably negative about how I’m a High Priest and am not committed.
I was very judgmental when I was fully committed. Judgmental toward people who wouldn’t make sacrifices to do their calling or didn’t function when called. Sometimes even negative when they refused a calling. I was very hard hearted toward the poor at certain times as well. There was one sister that comes to mind who, in my view, was not the fastest bunny in the hutch. She was self-sufficient financially until something unusual would happen (car repairs, medical bills) and would then go the church for financial assistance. I remember sitting in a meeting with her and the Bishop after I did a needs analysis and listening to her go through, line by line, everything we thought she could do to be more self-reliant. She had a reason why she couldn’t embrace each suggestion we had. You said I should do this, but I can’t do that for this reasons, You said I should do this other thing, and I can’t do that for this reason, etcetera. It was a rapid fire rebuttal of everything we suggested that she do — such as move closer to her work so she could walk, and then go down to one car.
Eventually a new Bishop cut her off, and so she moved into a different Ward.
Anyway, I get sidetracked. Bottom line, I felt it was her own fault she was poor — and recently read that is precisely the way we should NOT think about the poor. It’s as if God knows that the poor are often poor due to their own outlook on life, and doesn’t judge them for it.
If I ever get active again, and am in leadership, I will be a MUCH less judgmental and kind-hearted person. I will have low expectations for the behavior of others and the overall success of the church in terms of metrics (% of TR holders wth current TR’s, activity rates, prospective elders, ministering statistics). For years, all that stole my inner peace — no longer.
What are they like? Are they unorthodox members like so many of us here? Traditional believers with an open mind? Please tell me more about where they land on the spectrum of church activity, traditionalism, and unorthodoxy. I just want to comment that as I’ve aged, I realize how life and circumstances are best visualized as a continuum. That’s why I tend to reject the idea of a Spirit Paradise and a Spirit Prison as an either/or outcome of our earthy existence. The feasible explanation of this to me is that there must be “many mansions” as we read about in other parts of scripture — even in the interim period between death and resurrection. The concept of “many mansions” is probably referring to the final judgment, but I find it hard to believe that God would grade us on a continuum in the final judgment, but place us in only 1 of 2 possible states when we await the resurrection. All this makes me feel uneasy though. I’m not active, don’t pay tithing, don’t wear garments and don’t feel much motivation to do so. What is going to happen to me for eternity?
Which also begs another question for me — is it fair to judge a person for eternity on their experience in the “flash in the pan mortal existence” when we are here without complete information about so many questions that inform us about our eternal existence? Not do derail the thread, but I often wonder about this…
This sounds like a compassionate person who has emotions that can be touched. Hopefully he is more on the Love spectrum than the Obedience spectrum. Obedience bishops can make your life really tough. This reminds me of when I was active. I had a vision of everyone being active, of all metrics strong, and felt a constant undercurrent of frustration with church service since none of this ever seemed attainable. I now realize that it ISN’T attainable, and my frustration and resulting judgmentalism of people who wouldn’t tow the line was unfounded. Hopefully your Bishop has also crossed that threshold.
The funeral for my mother — called a Celebration of Life — was actually kind of hard on me, but not for the reasons MM gave. My mother had a ton of people who came to her funeral, and there were a lot of people who were positive about her impact on their lives — many people she served, people she worked with, people with whom she volunteered, and so on.
I was also really surprised at how hard it was for my sister. I didn’t realize they were so close. They would talk multiple times a day, I learned, while I would talk to my mother every few months, and normally only if I called her.
Amidst all the adulation for her, I sat there only capable of remembering how incredibly hurtful and damning she could be about me and my personality. And how she beat me regularly when I was a child — “Spare the rod and spoil the child” as she used to say. To her credit, she apologized for the beatings, as she said that was the philosophy of the time — to beat your children when they misbehaved, so she thought she was doing the right thing. She never did apologize for some pretty harsh judgments and verbal abuses when I was an adult though. I will simply have to forgive.
It made it hard to understand how everyone was so positive about her impact on others. Perhaps you’ve experienced it — you have a quasi negative view of someone based on what you know about them — in a way others don’t — which makes it hard to be around people who are so positive about the person.
Now, when my father dies, that will be different. I was much closer to him, and he did many inspiring things. So, for me the loss will be much harder for me when my father dies than when my mother died. I felt a bit envious that my sister received the level of love from my mother she did — as my mother rarely talked to me as we both got older.
I tried to put together a service for myself recently. My focus will be on helping people who attend to believe in, or reinforce their belief in God. There will be an instrumental song, hopefully performed by my sister and her family (piano, 3 violins and double bass) where everyone uses the time and music to reflect on their life and receive inspiration from God.
I plan to have some songs played by Afterglow — I Know He’s There, and perhaps Example to the World while everyone listens to the words, which I will probably have printed on a program.
And I plan to have a few scriptures shared from the Bible, BoM and Doctrine and Covenents. So, I will be covertly Mormon but the focus will be on one’s relationship with God. Christ will be mentioned so people don’t get the idea Mormonism is void of Christ. But that won’t be the focus, the focus will be on God and spirituality. I plan to put money aside to have a friend travel to whereever we are holding the funeral, and he, as a Mormon, will give the eulogy and his wife would read the LDS scriptures so I don’t make that reading awkward for my non-believing families. Don’t want to force scriptures on them they don’t believe.
But back to the topic — your thoughts on planning your own funeral?
