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Roy wrote:
In summary, I believe there will always be a tension for people like us that may attend the LDS church and not be “all in.” There will be people pushing you to be all in, you will need to establish and maintain boundaries, and then people will be suspicious of you and your motives and they may distance themselves from you.This above sort of summarizes my own experience. But note that Roy has a strong service experience in the community and elsewhere. I think it’s good to find those relationships in the community which provides another place to belong. And it’s a lot more friendly to people who set boundaries around their service.
I have my own theory on creationism and evolution. I believe that God doesn’t know exactly how to create things perfectly the first time He does it. Instead, he uses his ability to control time to try the creation of whatever He wants, speeding up time to see the results of different variables in the species as they interact with their environment. Through these actions, He sees what worked, and then goes back to the drawing board with that new knowledge, trying again until He gets it right.
Where am I getting this from?
I teach Monte Carlo simulation at university. I was working on a simulation in Excel where I simulated the operating of a manufacturing facility over 100 days. This was to determine optimal production and inventory levels given uncertain and fluctuating demand, according to historical probability distributions. I realized that in doing this, I was manipulating time to my advantage — in a somewhat Godlike way, through technology.
At roughly the same time, I watched a show on the development of homineds and related species leading to the development of modern homo sapiens. I learned there were many species who lived, procreated, and then eventually became extinct. This had me thinking that these evolutionary lines, which eventually petered out, may well have been God experimenting with different biological “configurations” of human-like beings until He came up with the current configuration of man (person) kind. The current version of humanity is capable of surviving for the long term as an apex preditor, and subduing nature to his own advantage as humanity currently does (albeit, with the risk of destroying the planet. Maybe this is the next phase of our evolution in God’s simulation — to create humans who are capable of advancing technologically without destroying the planet in the process?).
I shared this ONCE privately to someone in priesthood meeting as an aside to a lesson, and he rejected the theory out of hand. But He was a traditional believing Mormon, and you know how that goes amidst people like us here at StayLDS.
Anyway, that’s my current theory of creation.
I had partial success… After I crossed the line into disaffection/unbelief, I was asked to teach Gospel Essentials. I felt like a bit of a traitor doing so, as it was inauthentic in certain lessons. But I was very successful at it. The Gospel Doctrine attendees started flocking to my Gospel Essentials class to the point the Bishop mandated that you had to be in the Ward mission or with an investigator to attend. So, I was getting a ton of positive feedback for my work as a teacher which took the edge off what I was doing. Then, suddenly, I was released and it blew my bubble entirely. I think if the Bishop had’ve known about my posts here at the time, and how I was on the edge of activity, he might have not released me. He affirmed that I did nothing wrong, though, when I asked. It seemed odd to me I would be released when it was working so well, and they had nothing else to call me to.
I continued attending but it was kind of a hollow experience. And then, I found out from a naive but well-meaning member that the leadership was very negative about me behind my back.
We then started attending a different Ward due to bullying of our daughter in our home ward. They accepted us, surprisingly, but my unwillingness to serve really ticked them off, and eventually they dropped us.
Where did I get my community then? From my hobbies. I ran a small music production company for 10 years part-time, and I forged a lot of good relationships with the other musicians. Not all, but there was a core of them who were good friends. We didn’t get deep into each other’s life issues, but there was comradery and there was a single mother who played keyboard that I sort of took under my wing, checking in on her during hurricanes and helping her wherever I could.
I also started volunteering in the community in a quasi-government entity meant to revitalize an area of town near where I lived. Here, I made a whole bunch of new friendships and relationships. I saw that many of the problems we face with volunteerism in the church exist in other organizations, and I also learned that in many ways, church members are exceptional. They tended to gossip less and and be more interested in relationships for their own sake than the people in the non-profit where I worked. This work also got me noticed in my full-time work, with my boss offering me a leadership position saying “people have been watching your work in the community, and the success you had there couldn’t have occurred if you didn’t have leadership skills”.
So, based on my experience, I would suggest getting involved in a community service organization of some kind. There you can serve as much as you want as there are no expectations drawn from temple covenants, and there is greater respect for your agency in service. There you will find yourself part of a community and can invest your time in meaningful projects that help the local community. Also, the results “return on investment” was higher for me in the community service context than in the church. A lot of what I did in the church didn’t bear fruit, while in the community, I had a lot of tangible results. Stuff that I look back on today with fondness.
nibbler wrote:
Ultimately I’d be dead, so it really wouldn’t matter.
I think it matters a lot. If you believe our spirit lives after death, then what happens here, without me, but ABOUT ME is very important to me. Just as if I was here. There has to be SOME communication with the earthy sphere in the next life, even if it’s through acquaintances who pass through the veil and can share news from when they were on the earth.
DJ (and everyone). When we say these services are for the living and not the dead, I think there are many purposes for the living: a) To give the surviving family members and friends a sense of finality and closure that the person has passed on.
b) To motivate and inspire them to emulate the good aspects of the person’s life.
c) To give the living a chance to show their respect for the person who has died.
d) To bring families together. One person said that death is the last gift a person gives to their family, given the unifying effect a funeral has on the surviving members.
My own funeral will try to bless the attendees with inspiration to serve others, to believe in God, to think about how they can be an example to others, and to receive revelation during the meeting about their life in general.
In encouraging these outcomes for attendees, this also gives them a sense of my personality and being, which I would like to pass on.
I am working on a personal biography as well, whose working title is “The Book of Dad”. It goes into my autobiography, my life’s philosophy as well as practical tips for living one’s life. Talking about the church and religion is going to be sticky for me because I am not an example of textbook Mormonism, and I don’t want to encourage people to be half-milers or think negatively about the church.
It will be a kind of autobiography. Too many people die leaving little behind as a legacy. For example, there are a few grainy black and white, deteriorating pictures of my grandfather, and a few similar pictures of my mother. Anything left behind is accidental and not purposive like my own autobiography will be.
nibbler wrote:
I think whatever we believe to be scripture is scripture and that’s going to be different for every individual. I don’t think scripture has inherent authority. It only has the authority that we ourselves give it….[and so on]…Very interesting thoughts Nibbler. I actually pasted most of your post above into my journal as perhaps the final word on this subject for me, for now.
Thanks,
SD
I asked artificial intelligence why God doesn’t supply us with a clear path to heaven. Here is the answer I got. I thought it was a pretty good answer:
Quote:
The question of why God doesn’t provide a clear path to heaven is one that has been explored by theologians, philosophers, and believers throughout history. Different religious traditions offer various explanations, but here are a few common perspectives:1. **Free Will**: Many believe that God values human free will and wants people to choose to seek and follow Him out of love and genuine desire, rather than compulsion. A clear and unmistakable path might diminish the role of faith and choice in the relationship between God and humanity.
2. **Faith and Trust**: The journey to heaven is often seen as one of faith and trust. The lack of absolute clarity may encourage believers to trust in God, develop a deeper spiritual connection, and grow in their faith. It’s in the process of seeking and questioning that many people find a more profound sense of purpose and understanding.
3. **Personal Growth and Testing**: Some traditions hold that life’s challenges and uncertainties are a way to test and strengthen a person’s character, faith, and virtues. The struggle to find the right path can lead to spiritual growth and a closer relationship with God.
4. **Mystery and the Divine**: God’s ways are sometimes described as mysterious or beyond human understanding. The complexities and ambiguities in the path to heaven could be a reflection of the divine nature that transcends human reasoning.
5. **Diversity of Belief**: Different religious traditions offer varied teachings about the path to heaven. Some suggest that this diversity reflects the different ways people can experience and understand the divine, allowing for a more inclusive approach to spirituality.
These perspectives are not exhaustive, and individual beliefs may vary depending on one’s religious or philosophical outlook.
The funeral for my mother — called a Celebration of Life — was actually kind of hard on me, but not for the reasons MM gave. My mother had a ton of people who came to her funeral, and there were a lot of people who were positive about her impact on their lives — many people she served, people she worked with, people with whom she volunteered, and so on.
I was also really surprised at how hard it was for my sister. I didn’t realize they were so close. They would talk multiple times a day, I learned, while I would talk to my mother every few months, and normally only if I called her.
Amidst all the adulation for her, I sat there only capable of remembering how incredibly hurtful and damning she could be about me and my personality. And how she beat me regularly when I was a child — “Spare the rod and spoil the child” as she used to say. To her credit, she apologized for the beatings, as she said that was the philosophy of the time — to beat your children when they misbehaved, so she thought she was doing the right thing. She never did apologize for some pretty harsh judgments and verbal abuses when I was an adult though. I will simply have to forgive.
It made it hard to understand how everyone was so positive about her impact on others. Perhaps you’ve experienced it — you have a quasi negative view of someone based on what you know about them — in a way others don’t — which makes it hard to be around people who are so positive about the person.
Now, when my father dies, that will be different. I was much closer to him, and he did many inspiring things. So, for me the loss will be much harder for me when my father dies than when my mother died. I felt a bit envious that she had that level of love from my mother, who rarely talked to me as we both got older.
I tried to put together a service for myself recently. My focus will be on helping people who attend to believe in, or reinforce their belief in God. There will be an instrumental song, hopefully performed by my sister and her family (piano, 3 violins and double bass) where everyone uses the time and music to reflect on their life and receive inspiration from God.
I plan to have some songs played by Afterglow — I Know He’s There, and perhaps Example to the World while everyone listens to the words, which I will probably have printed on a program.
And I plan to have a few scriptures shared from the Bible, BoM and Doctrine and Covenents. So, I will be covertly Mormon but the focus will be on one’s relationship with God. Christ will be mentioned so people don’t get the idea Mormonism is void of Christ. But that won’t be the focus, the focus will be on God and spirituality. I plan to put money aside to have a friend travel to whereever we are holding the funeral, and he, as a Mormon, will give the eulogy and his wife would read the LDS scriptures so I don’t make that reading awkward for my non-believing families. Don’t want to force scriptures on them they don’t believe.
But back to the topic — your thoughts on planning your own funeral?
He sounds like he was a fun guy! I love the gorilla suit viewing! It sure does make light of his passing. There was a “Life in Pieces” episode where a guy planned his own funeral and it was also an amusing episode. Yes, I have experienced a change in my attitude to prayer. It is a practice now that is born out of frustration with not getting answers to my prayers.
I now give a long list of prayers for people I know who have needs. Often I pray for things that they tell me they would like me to pray for. And I go through that list every night when I first go to bed.
The other thing I do is give a long list of thanks for often mundane things, and sometimes big, good things that happen.
For a while, I would then pray for ONE THING for myself, and I would give it a time limit before I stopped praying for it. This was interesting because a couple things I prayed for steadfastly actually happened in a way that I attribute to God.
I am thankful for this discussion thread, MM, because it reminds me to go back to that “single personal petition” with a time limit. Thanks MM!
AmyJ wrote:
How can we help you here?I am not sure how anyone can help me here. I partly use this site as a kind of interactive journal where I record my thoughts and questions, and then make decisions after I hear what others have to say. Others, like yourself, who aren’t bound by the standard answers you get when you ask traditional believing Mormons. Sometimes I come to a conclusion, other times the idea just sits unsettled, perhaps never to be answered. So, your answers to my questions are probably the most help you can provide.
Quote:What kind of major revelations do you feel or think that you need for your life?I can’t help you a lot here because what I am getting from this post is a focus on “what you are going wrong / your actions aren’t good enough” vs the randomness of interacting with God.
When I was a teenager, a few close friends turned on me, and I also lost a girlfriend. At the time (I was 15) this was really hard on me, and I went into my first kind of depression. My parents asked me to meet with our United Church of Canada minister. He FILLED ME with the holy ghost as he taught me about God. Once, I left his office full of joy to the point I hugged myself once on the way out of his office. And while praying one night, I felt this overpowering spirituality come over me as I knelt by my bedside and prayed. It was a clear revelation at the time that God existed.
When the LDS missionaries taught me at the age of 20, when they told me about Moroni’s promise, I felt I understood what revelation felt like given my bedside experience at 15, about 4-5 years previously. I expected it to be the same overpowering experience I had at 15 which, to this day, has me believing in God. And this in spite of all the other negative things that have happened to me in the LDS Church.
It took me over a year of praying for a similar experience to have that same kind of overpowering spirituality in response to the question “Is the Mormon church true and should I become a member of it?”. The experience I eventually had was about 60% of what I experienced as a 15 year old praying to God, but it was enough to convince me that I should join the LDS Church.
At the time, I accepted Joseph Smith and Christ on faith. One thing my minister never could convince me of was the need for a savior or that He even existed as a divine being on earth. The missionaries clarified this for me with the passages in the BoM about the law of justice and mercy — something that wasn’t clearly stated in the Bible. All of a sudden, the BoM clarified for me the phrase my parents and minister had said “Jesus died for our sins”. I heard that a lot and never knew what it meant. But the Book of Mormon explained it clearly — and this helped develop my current affinity for the Book of Mormon. It did answer questions that the Bible was rather vague about. To this day, The BoM is my go to scripture for that reason.
So, that kind of electric, overpowering almost hurting sensation in direct response to a question is the kind of revelation I need to really believe something — to answer your question.
nibbler wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
But I said earlier that relief from accountability (damning as you put it OT) does not hold water with me because the scriptures have heaps of accountability for not believing.
What is scripture and why should what a particular scripture say matter?
Scripture is inspired guidance from God, often given through authorized human beings. We should pay attention to scripture because it’s the best indicator of God’s will for us that we have. That would be my standardized sort of answer to Nibbler’s question. Nibbler — what do you think scripture is, and whether what a particular scripture says matters?
After reading the Book of Mormon a lot, and pondering the responses here, I don’t think I have the real intent necessary to get a new testimony. I am tainted by life experience in the church, unfortunately, to the point that full blown service seems distasteful to me. I am not sure I could go back to it. And I think that disqualifies me from any major revelations. I hope it never goes away. I still have questions now and then as I change and evolve. It helps to know there are people here to interact with. I’d feel so lonely without it… Old-Timer wrote:
DarkJedi explained my comment as well as I could have.🙂 To return to the original post’s focus,
I see faith as what motivates discovery and non-organic change (change that wouldn’t happen naturally).It takes belief in the unseen to do the unseeable.
I see that explanation — as I said in my Opening Post, I get faith is necessary to motivate action, but when it comes to the facts of eternal life, that’s where I am fuzzy on the reliability and necessity of faith. There are so many people who have faith in their own religion, and they can’t all be right.
