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The Lord wants people who will serve “without compulsory means” as it says in Doctrine and Covenants Section 121. That old expression “do it willingly or don’t do it at all” has merit because I think the Lord wants people who are “anxiously engaged”, and doing so “out of their own free will” (apologies for all the “quotations”) In this case, your heart understandably isn’t in it, so you have at least three options:
a) Tell the Bishop you don’t want to go and any pressure you’re feeling, perceived or real, isn’t helping you and your wife at all. Politely explain its need to stop. Kindly stand your ground when he provides his reasons, and leave the meeting with the pressure off and your position heard.
Before you go this route, think about whether you’ll be happy with this decision in years hence when possibly, it won’t be physically possible to serve a mission due to health or other unexpected life events. You mentioned the lack of a mission has been a source of social angst for you; if so, then project yourself into the future and consider whether you’ll be happy with this decision from this future perspective.
b) Enjoy yourself for a while, leaving yourself open to the idea you might go in the future after you’ve had your fill of those hobbies and life experiences you and your wife want to have. Keep the Bishop at bay for a while and give him a lengthy time frame during which you should be left alone.
c) Change your heart and do what the Bishop wants. This latter one will take prayer, seeking the Lord, reflecting on overcoming any tendencies to put your will ahead of the Lord’s agenda etcetera. If/when you do change your heart, approach the Bishop with full purpose of heart and offer to go. (I don’t mean for part (c) to sound judgmental by the way — I’m in your position right now as it relates to taking on an other priesthood or leadership calling in my Ward, and I’m opting for option (b) above right now).
I do want to say that my mission was very positive. I had spiritual experiences that strengthened my testimony to the point I’ve been able to withstand some of the most heart-wrenching experiences at the hands of the Church and its members. I grew in my knowledge of the scriptures, and the studying for two hours a day became like basking in spiritual sunlight regularly. It was also hard, but my memories are almost entirely positive from the perspective of two decades later. I don’t regret going at all, and the knowledge I did a mission increases my confidence in a good outcome when I stand in front of the Lord.
However, I went willingly with this insatiable desire to do it. I wouldn’t make the decision to go until you’re in that place.
For me, it’s OK to question as long as it doesn’t degenerate into a negative attitude about the topic I’m questioning. There has to be this abiding certainty that I’m doing the right thing by reflecting on my spirtual experiences with the Church even when things don’t make sense. I too think this is a great topic. In my MBA studies, we studied institutionalization, as well as the need for organizations to grow and change. The analogy of “boxes and bubbles” was used. Boxes describe institutionalized policies that work in a stable environment for a given set of circumstances. Bubbles represent experimental or new policies borne out of changing circumstances such as new competition, the integration of a new division into the company, or the decline or introduction of certain products, for example.
Certain bubbles are highly effective, and these should eventually be institutionalized, forming “boxes”. Then the organization can grow and progress due to the efficacy of these new policies. However, the organization needs to be on guard, and flexible enough to recognize when it’s time to introduce more bubbles into their organization. And I think that is where the Church may be falling down.
On this note, I agree that the policies that worked back in the 50’s and 60’s don’t seem to work as well anymore due to changes in public perception and social attitudes that are hard to change. They are boxes in a time when we need bubbles.
Example:
When people see two young men in white shirts and ties walk up to their door, it often creates a “Shields Up!” mentality because they know they are Mormons, and have preconceived notions given all the anti-Mormon propaganda that has been dragged across our Church. It also reinforces the notion that we are a cult since everyone is dressed the same.
The purpose of white shirts and ties? In my view, to present a clean-cut, trustworthy image — one that is worthy of representing the Lord. This was standard attire back in the 1950’s and 1960’s, but it’s different now. You can be clean cut and still wear a blue shirt, for example. And if our missionaries and members dressed differently, we may have better success when we visit people at the door.
I could cite other examples, but this will go on too long. I hope the higher-ups are looking at this, as I do believe it’s time there was some change to bring the Church up to date with the times.
I think this is an interesting topic. I always like being able to adopt the perspectives of other people and forget my own for a while.
I think True, True Blue Mormons would look at this site with disdain — as a place for doubters, questioners, people with negative attitudes toward the Church, and possibly as a pre-Apostate venue for active Mormons. They would look at many of the discussions as taking the first step, or ANOTHER step toward apostasy. Others might see it as a justification and strengthening of anti-Church attitudes when the advice of others doesn’t line up with traditional answers given at Church.
I personally see it as a positive place to go and air your concerns about the Church. Church is not a safe place to do it. The culture of obedience is too strong and you’ll end up ruining whatever reputation you have in the ward (if that matters to you). Also, we’ve had Bishops and Stake Presidents come down on Wards that venture too far into questioning during Church meetings since Church is a place you go to be strengthened. They do say that questionings, if necessary, should be done in private study, and I think this site qualifies as personal or, its near cousin small group study.
I’ve looked at postings at other TBM sites, and generally people with questioning attitudes toward the Church get stomped on, or someone makes a comment like “you poke and prod at doctrinal or structural issues that don’t matter”. One questioner’s question met with moderator hints such as “is there ANYTHING you find attractive about the Church???”.
What I like about this site is that you don’t get the standard trite responses to concerns. There is greater depth of thought and suggestions that go well beyond the surface. And I’ve noticed the tone has been kept constructive and rather positive and supportive, and not anti-Mormon.
My only concern with it is that it’s not as active as I’d like. I come here a lot and don’t find there is a lot of change from visit to visit, unlike some other forums. However, I expect this will change as the site gets more and more visitors.
Another thing I like is the LACK of this phenomenon — long time posters who dominate the forum. In two other forums I’ve been on, there are people with high postings who tend to shape the culture of the discussion forum, and they tend to go unfettered by the moderators. Someone posts a question and the high poster, looking at the post from only his or her narrow perspective will say “We already discussed that”. But to the new person posting the topic, it’s a fresh idea, and they want interaction, not to just look up what was said last time.
Also, I’ve noticed that in these other long-time forums, there is a group of high volume posters and moderators who support each other on certain issues, making a new poster who says something against the culture of the board feel like an outsider. I don’t see this here. Hopefully that never develops.
I’ve had similar experiences with feeling my reputation destroyed, ostracized by members of the Church etecetera, except not related to transgression. And I recognize that my experiences pale in comparison to yours — but here they are. One was when I asked to be released from a calling recently, and they dragged their feet while I suffered with various personal and health issues in the calling. I stopped functioning toward the end, and now, the stalwhart members treat me differently. I’m part of an out-group now, and my wife no longer feels part of the circle of stalwhart friends she used to be part of her.
There time was when a girl waited for me on my mission, and when I got home, I broke up with her. The women in the ward were really vindictive, as well as some of the male friends of my ex-girlfriend. One person said they wondered “who this demon SilentDawning was” and then met me and found I was OK. And everyone knew about it.
So, how do you deal with this?
1. You will probably have meetings with your Bishop or SP. I would suggest asking if you could attend a different Ward until you get your blessings back due to the feelings you have about everyone knowing. See what he says.
2. After you get your blessings back sufficient to hold a calling, consider moving to a different Stake. It’s amazing how a new Stake or Ward in a new Stake will make the whole Church thing alive. You can start fresh and be your old self again, unfettered by this harrowing experience and its fallout.
3. Ask the SP if the notes follow you throughout the rest of your life, or if they stay in the Stake. Ask about security of the information, and let him know that the belief you have that the Church does not forget is bothering you. Couch the language in respect for the excommunication decision, as you have here, but express your concerns and ask him to address them candidly.
4. Try to curb the bitterness. I struggle with it myself, and get tired of the standard answers about bitterness etcetera. For me, it’s just hard not to feel bitter when things I object to happen. But in the long run, it’s better for you to get your blessings back, and not to let the understable impulses of bitterness interfere with your repentence process. You’ll be happier and will feel better without bitterness, that’s for sure.
Anyway, I feel for you on this, and I empathsize with your concerns completely.
I hope you check back with us as this unfolds in case you have questions or just want to share comments.
I think I’m a faithful doubter. I have a testimony, which keeps me coming back to Church, but I get doubts when I see the behavior of the members and sometimes the leaders. Or when it gets to be too much of an emotional trial to interface with other people at Church who behave in ways that I find offensive.
I’m not talking about day-to-day conflicts, I’m talking about things like members distributing nasty notes to the Ward leadership about you as a leader. Or, sometimes, what I feel are questionable decisions made by the leadership that seem to do more harm than good.
Someone once said that if the Church wasn’t true, they wouldn’t bother to come. That’s me. I would’ve left permanently years ago if I didn’t have spiritual experiences that convinced me this is where the Lord wants me. There are times I wish I was free of it actually, but I keep coming because of the spiritual experiences I’ve had.
But don’t mind me, I’m in a difficult period right now, and turning to forums like these helps me air my feelings in a safer environment than Church.
I was a stake executive secretary many moons ago (over 10) and the notes taken at disciplinary councils were kept in a hard copy in a file. I was asked to clean out the filing system and found stuff from 10 years previously, which I just left alone. The decision of the council eventually hits your membership record where it’ll be noted that you were excommunicated, and your membership record annotated. I don’t know what the annotation contained. However, it was necessary so if people move to a new ward, the Bishop there can make sure he doesn’t put people with say, child abuse history in Primary, for example.
Or so he knows your status and doesn’t call you to a position until repentence is finished. I know the child abuse situation doesn’t apply in your case, but I share it so you know why some sins follow the person in their membership record annoation; this is to protect the innocent in some cases.
I doubt if the hard copies travel with the membership record though.
Now, there may be other systems in place with the upgrades to MLS system recently, but this is what I know, in case it helps.
You might ask this question of the Stake President or your Bishop, and hope for a candid answer.
Old-Timer wrote:Why did I write this post? Mostly, it was to encourage everyone here and elsewhere to perhaps slow down a little, focus solely on what others actually say and look for ways to view what is said charitably – even if you then move on to real disagreement with what it said or written. In this case, I believe the Golden Rule is about as universal as it can be.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. I’ve been on other LDS sites, and I’ve been amazed at how rude apparently active Church members can be to others. For example, I’ve seen some people get accolades from others by making consistent judgments about people’s character. Someone posts a problem they have, and then someone responds:
“I think you have a victim complex and your whole post drips of “woe is me”. Sometimes you just have to suck it up”.
or, here’s another one:
“I think you’re needy and overzealous”
or
“I think you need to repent and stop being such a whiner”.
Comments like those never create goodwill, and there are certainly nicer ways of helping peolple see character weaknesses, if they can even be identified by “reading between the lines” in their posts (I think there’s some question about whether such character judgements are even accurate by the way).
I often reach out to the casualities of such harsh behavior, and private message them showing support. They always write back thanking me.
And, while I’m on this, I would hope that when someone commits themself to a forum, others would make note of when they stop posting, or welcome them back after a long absence. The harshness I see in some posts, and from moderators on other sites (not this one yet) makes me wonder if anyone cares about relationships anymore on on online discussion forums in general. I think we should — they are supposed to be ‘communities’ which by their nature should provide people with a sense of belonging.
i had this conversation with a Pentacostal minister recently. I like the Min Max Regret approach to decision making. You basically look at each alternative and estimate what the maximum negative consequence is if you’re wrong. Then you pick the alternative that has minimum amount of negative consequences for you.
If I’m a member of the Church, and I shouldn’t be, then I see no consequences. I feel I’m living at least the standards of other religions in the mainstream Christian world, so I don’t expect the eternal circumstances to be all that bad.
If I choose not to be a member of the Church, and I SHOULD be a member of the Church, then I may be shorting myself out of eternal exhaltation and eternal family. And the lower behavioral standards in other Christian religions may have me falling short of what God expects.
Therefore, being a member of the Church provides the minimum eternal regret between my two considered alternatives.
Also, if God tells me I’m wrong after death, I’m going to point to this confusing world where you don’t have evidence of the truth right in front of you. The only thing left to avail me was spiritual feelings. And I acted on them. And, i f I’m wrong, and He’s telling me what I SHOULD be doing for the rest of eternity, I will tell him that he has my whole life as evidence of my desires to follow Him. So, I will align myself with the new correct philosophy, THE SAME WAY I DID ON EARTH when I thought Mormonism was the correct way to go. He already knows where my commitment was due to my willingness to shoulder a religion which requires more sacrifice than other religions. The proof is in the pudding of my life — just point me to where you want me to go Heavenly Father — my life as a Mormon tells you the lengths I’m willing to go to obey thy will.
I’ll be real surprised if he doesn’t honor that!!!
There have been times in my life when the Spirit is undeniably present. Overpowering to the point of almost being too intense to endure. And then, there are other times I’m looking for direction and get weak impressions — maybe a random idea to talk to someone about something gospel related, or maybe a desire to do something good. In these latter times, whether it’s inspiration or not are just not clear me. So, wheter the Spirit reliable, for me, depends on how intense and undeniable it is. If it’s overpowering, then it’s reliable as its undeniably from God. If I can’t say definitively it’s from God, it’s not reliable — and then, it may not even be the Spirit.
Ryan — the answer above doesn’t satisfy me, unfortunately. I would’ve rather we just admitted Gordon B Hinckely made a mistake. We DO teach it, and we DO emphasize it. It’s part of the chapter on Exhaltation in the current edition of Gospel Principles, standard curriculum for Gospel Essentials, RS, and Priesthood. The missionary discussions for years explain one of our goals to “become like God” ourselves. As I’ve been anticipating your answer, which I forecasted would be an attempt to explain away what he said, I figured this is another one of those things you just have to overlook, relying on the Spirit you felt that convinced you to join the Church in the first place. I’m sorry he said it, unfortunately. At the same time, thanks for trying to address it.
greenapples wrote:I’m on here off and on.
I have been on an LDS site that had a forum and a chat room. It was an LDS site for Young Single Adults. I had a few doubts. I gladly shared with some people some of my doubts. Instead of showing concern or giving me some kind of insight or feedback they all seemed to turn on me. Everyone in the chat room had the attitude of “HOW DARE YOU!!” One of the guys who helped run the site and chat room snapped and accused me of being a troll!!??
I had the same experience at another LDS site. I expressed concern I had with one of the Church policies that seemed heavy-handed, and everyone ganged up on me, called me to repentence, told me the fault was with me.tcetera. When they came out with weak reasons, I rebutted them and was astounded at how riled up they got at me about it. Eventually the moderator closed the thread and I went away baffled at how defensive they were. Perhaps they thought I was a troll or something. I left that discussion feeling more entrenched in my belief the policy needed work so it added more good as it subtracted from one’s LDS experience.
And since then, there are several personalities there I can always count on to support others who disagree with me at that site.
Then I came here and noticed someone had started a thread on the same subject and there were no judgmental comments from anyone, just support and opinions, but no calls to repentence to the topic starter. And not everyone was in agreement on the subject either. I posted the same beliefs I had in the other forum and the people here didn’t object at all. This is definitely a safer place to share doubts and get constructive suggestions. How therapeutic.
I was less active for 7 years. I found people treated me in ways that made me feel less active. At times if they had’ve asked me to do certain things, I would’ve. But they didn’t ask me. GBSmith wrote:Some people spend an inordinate amount of time thinking and worrying about something that there’s been disappearingly little said, written or revealed about. I still like the old version of a hymn before it was correlated, “there is no tomorrow but only today.”
I actually thought this was a good question. Think about all the sacrifice required in this life to live the gospel — isn’t it relevant to explore what life will be like there given the effort required? There are some indications in the scriptures; perhaps we should revisit them.
Also, I think the blessings of the promised reward can do a lot to motivate who are struggling with their faith in this life. There are many motives for serving and remaining active; one is expectation of reward — reflecting on these rewards can help people remain active….
One assumption the celestial glory reward is that people value eternal progression. However, I’ve seen a lot of people in life who are just content to take life as it comes, and don’t really want to progress. So, is the celestial kindgom, with its eternal progression, something everyone wants? Where I’m at right now, I’d be content with eternal peace and joy.
To answer the question I was asked above, I live in an area which has decent membership, but also a lot of members. It’s United States but not Utah, Idaho or other heavily Mormon populated states. It’s an area where if you’re committed and reliable, you usually end up with a calling of some responsibility unless you’re on a break. I’m happy to discuss only the relationships thing and look foward to a separate post on the Larry King thing from our moderator.
