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Sad dads. I’m not gonna make it. I’ve got too much going on today and too many billz to spare $10. Have fun, those of you who are going! :wave: Welcome to the group, Sanders! This group has helped me so much. Despite a lot of talk about the love that the Lord has for us, there can be a lot of obsession with the appearance of perfection. It has ruined more than one generation of my family here in Northern Utah. Christ’s gospel is perfect (charity, hope, patience, etc.), and although I can no longer say that “I know” this or “I know” that, I have a lot of hope that through the mercy of a loving Heavenly Father, my heart can be understood and my imperfect efforts to be a half-decent human being will be enough.
This forum has kept me from a lot of anger. The moderators do an amazing job! It has been really good to come on here and chat with people who have similar goals regarding the church.
hawkgrrrl wrote:I’m not sure why Holland gets so much the love. There is a thinly veiled anger to him that really is quite off-putting…
It’s the same reasons Elder Bruce McConkie and Brother Brigham got so much love. Those who are convinced of the “one true church” approachlovethe guys who are willing to get up and speak with force and a lot of emotion. It reinvigorates them and makes them feel alive in the faith! convert1992 wrote:So that means there is good news and bad news. The good news is that not so much depends on one man as is commonly assumed which should allay your fears of succession (remember ETB and how he didn’t undo anything Kimball did?). The bad news is, the way the Church is actually governed makes it extremely conservative and very likely to keep falling behind the times until perhaps one day it’s a tiny organization publishing writings no one reads. I hope that does not happen but the only way to stop it, I am afraid, is for faithful members (not exmos) to take the initiative and start changing our beliefs on our own.
I work for a state University and see the same thing. The board of regents really makes all the decisions; and they make the decisions and approvals for
EVERYTHING. It is really frustrating when you are trying to design for the people, but the school is run by a bunch of old people. Getting things approved is really slow and really difficult even for the simplest things. Things will continue to change slowly but surely just as they always have. It is just very frustrating for us. We live in an age when agile systems thrive. I hope that the church can find a way to become more agile so it can bear the burden of the information age and growing disinterest in apologetics.
Welcome to the forum! I haven’t been here long myself. But this group has been one of the most important parts of my transition. It has helped me avoid a lot of the anger and frustration I might have otherwise felt. It is a good place to get new perspectives on things and support one another! So glad you are here!
SamBee wrote:DNC should be respected though.
If my tag says DNR, then DON’T RESUSCITATE ME!!!
Same goes for DNC. Respect people’s decisions.
I like to believe that if something is important to me, it is important to my Heavenly Father. If that means helping me find my car keys in a pinch, I’ll take that help. If it’s helping me know what to say to a loved one in hard times, I’ll take that too. And, if it means not dying on my way home from church, I’ll take that as well. I think the issue with the car keys is that it seems to be one of those things that we refer to over and over in testimony meetings and cult stories. “I know the Church is true because God helped me find my car keys this week. Tender Mercies.” It is an example of a testimony of the Church based on little, unrelated things that happen that strengthen our faith in the existence of a loving Heavenly Father. “I found my keys. Church is true!” I find that attitude about faith annoying too. I think most people who try to have a thoughtful faith within any religion do. It feels more like superstition than faith.
I think it’s a worthwhile thing to do. Consider why you’re still involved in the church, and invite them based on those reasons. I think it’s good to give people the opportunity to reconsider what they once thought to be valuable in their life. When I was a missionary in Mexico, we’d use the member list as a way to tract. It was easier to say “We’re looking for this person do you know where he/she lives?” then go on to explain who we were and what we were about. It was far less intrusive than “Hi. We are here to convert you from the faith that your family has been practicing for hundreds of years.” When we found the person we were looking for, we’d say that we were updating the church records and then share a message, invite them to an activity, or etc, etc.
opentofreedom wrote:cwald wrote:I would probably start talking birth control at this point, if you haven’t already.
Abstinence is a great goal…but it can get worse.
I would also let them date as in movie nights at your home and her home. Supervised. If they are going to mate, they will find a way. … but at least this way they know you disapprove of premarital sex yet understand their biological drive and needs.
Just my opinion.
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I second this. Esp the supervised date nights at your home.
I third this. Removing the taboo is important. Living in Utah, and always having been forbidden to have illegal fireworks, when I was old enough to drive across the Utah/Wyoming border and buy my own, I bought way too much. I am still burning through them today.
When it is a taboo novelty, it fans the fire. Several years ago I went through counseling for sex addiction. I found out that one of my primary triggers was the thrill I got from doing something I wasn’t supposed to be doing (This is true for most people, which is why drug usage and pornography problems run so rampant in Utah). My parents did an excellent job teaching me correct principles and then allowing me to make my own choices. THAT, for the most part, turned me into the type of man I am today.
I don’t have kids yet, just one on the way, but this type of stuff scares the poop out of me. It is so easy now to get away with things that not very long ago would have taken a lot of work to make happen as a teenager.
If I were in your position, I’d sit him down, tell him that you love him, understand his feelings, and are going to let him make his own choices about the matter. Talk about contraception and that although you know it wouldn’t be a wise choice to make, if he is going to have sex, it is important to use protection. Let him know your position on his relationship, give them opportunities to be in your home and part of your family, and do your best to create a non-threatening environment. When he feels empowered to make his own decisions about things, he will probably make the right decisions.
But, it sounds like you’re doing most of this already—or at least trying to. It sounds like he has kind of put up barriers against open communication. So, I guess at this point, just try to let him know that its not something you approve of, that you know he’s going to find a way to do it if he really wants to, and remind him that these things have far reaching consequences. Then, leave it alone and stop poking the sore. (This is me speaking from the perspective of having been a sexual deviant myself, not having had kids of my own yet, but absolutely terrified of having to deal with this one day myself.) I’ve seen that it’s helpful to talk about things in terms of “normal to want, experience, desire,” “acceptable to want, experience, desire,” and then the fact that although there are things that are normal to want or to experience, “the natural man is an enemy to God” and that just because something is normal/natural to want, doesn’t make it good to do.
(Sorry for the rambling. I hope there is something in this post that can help in some way.
:crazy: )And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. (2 Nephi 25:26) They help me remember the Savior.
(Despite my feelings about the divinity of the Book of Mormon and Christ and the atonement, this is one of my favorite scriptures.)
DarkJedi wrote:I’m definitely at the point where I don’t really care how God does things so much as that they were done. If God created man through evolution, I don’t care – I care that God created man. If God inspired or directed Joseph Smith to take from the masonic rituals to form parts of the endowment instead of revealing it by his own hand, so be it. Over the past few months especially I have come to an understanding of how little is actually literal in scripture, including the D&C. In other words, I’m not so sure God actually revealed much to Joseph Smith, rather he allowed him to do things and approved it – like a great CEO would do. If there are temples and endowments on other worlds I bet they differ from ours but the message is the same. Again, this fits with my hands off view of God, so for me this works.
My feelings exactly.
The way I view it is if I enjoy it and get something out of it, it doesn’t matter where it came from. If it motivates me to be a better man and allows me opportunities to develop a stronger sense of spirituality, then who cares why it is similar to Freemasonry? I see it as a sort of Brother of Jared sort of thing (Whether or not you believe in the BOM as an inspired scripture is beside the point). Maybe God didn’t tell Joseph Smith (the level to which you accept/don’t accept JS as a prophet is beside the point) word for word and motion for motion how things should be done, but, that doesn’t mean there isn’t approval from on high. I imagine the Church without the endowment, and I see how it makes the Church better for me.
