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I see value in all of the arguments here. The fundamentalist(non-literal) or OG(original gangsta) approach is to take the words of the scriptures, the prophets and of the church as law. Right and wrong is defined, and we are expected to obey with the thought that God has placed these laws for a reason that may not be understood right now. I think that stance is as difficult as any gay person trying to live an honest life, especially if one feels counter to that of the law.

But we should also keep in mind that the church has changed plenty of moral laws in their short history. So sure, there are no gray areas; until there is one.

In my opinion, you have to trust your gut, wherever that leads you. I feel really bad for a gay person in the church. I really wouldn’t expect them to stay, and I hope the church would understand. My cousin went inactive after he came out, but he still holds strong beliefs in the church. It’s a tough road.

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Interesting, from Rough Stone Rolling, Bushman notes JS’s own evolving prophecies on the Second Coming, which obviously changed like everyone else’s when it didn’t happen:

1st-Initial claim- Second Coming would arrive within a half dozen years (of 1830)

2nd- Christ will come in 1843 (widely believed, as MWallace noted)

3rd -“More than 40 years will pass before the second coming of the Son of Man” JS’s words

4th- Missionary lessons including teaching that the Second Coming would just be the millennium

I’m not sure how helpful prophecies have been to this world. After reading The History of the End of the World, which discusses literal effects of misinterpretations of the Book of Revelations throughout history, I am convinced that all Second Coming theories serve as downers. So far, every single person to claim they know when it will happen has gotten it wrong. It is obviously a fascinating subject, but I think folks have a sick “I told you so” element to their fascination with it, as if they are so anxious to see others punished and themselves rewarded for getting it right. Obviously, Mormons believe they’re in the latter days, so what? What does that change? Revelations reads like a cornucopia of revenge motifs, but it’s all out of our hands. How many of us have heard, by members, that the Second Coming will probably occur in our lifetime? And how many people in the last two thousand years have heard it too? O.k rambling, sorry. I guess my point is that the past two thousand years can be seen as the Great Disappointment.

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I was a bit disappointed with the podcast interview with Bushman. Not that John didn’t ask the right questions, but Bushman never really countered the accusations and problems with the church from the last 50 years. Instead, he just jumped in with the “ya, that may be true but i’m o.k with it” bandwagon. I gotta say; that stance is very frustrating to me. Other than that stance in his interview, and his very light touch on the major issues of modern historicity, I felt his book was rather extraordinary.

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Rix wrote:

the gospel he brought forth has given my life meaning and purpose.

To me, that is all that matters

Hmmm, I don’t think anyone on this site has ever disputed the goodness that comes from the church, or the meaning and purpose it can bring forth in all of us. If meaning and purpose is all that matters, then what stops one from accepting all religions and philosophies as the truth of God? ‘Cause I can see goodness is every religion.

Here, in this thread, we are talking about a visit of God and Christ to a kid in the woods. We are discussing what was said based on various accounts of JS. The first, second, third ect… the circumstances surrounding the accounts, the validity of each statement, and what the differences in each one means. I have found meaning in my life from poetry, literature, movies, acts of humanity, from nature and from God; but that is not what we are talking about. JS is the prophet of a church that we are all struggling to follow. Let’s at least admit to the struggle and the reasons for it. I think the various accounts of the FV is a serious mark of concern for members of the church. JS’s life as a prophet began with a vision, and he wrote it down, then he changed it, then he changed it again, then again, and then again. This was not an idea, open to amendments, it was an event.

Did it happen or not? Did he fight with the Devil or was he just following the typical conversion motif found in so many evangelical moments of spiritual rapture? Was it a light in the sky, and a single voice forgiving him of his sins, or was it a meeting with the Father and the Son, instructing him to restore the gospel, like so many other churches around him were claiming as their task? There are specific plot points here, I think they’re important. Can anyone honestly say they were happy after discovering and reading the original account of the FV? I sure wasn’t. Hence the struggle.

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I’m still recuperating from Rough Stone Rolling myself.

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Anyone listen to Quinn’s speech/testimony at the Sunstone symposium? Pretty moving stuff.

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o.k, I’m confused. I get what you’re saying about the metaphysical view of religion, and all the elusive motifs and stuff, but I looked at the website that you quoted from, and it has a bunch of conspiracy theory stuff; mark of the beast, 666 in bar codes, 9-11 being planned by the american gov., crazy visions and prophesies from angels regarding some very specific events that have recently occurred , plenty of waco texas stuff…none of which has anything to do with what you’re talking about. And what I am saying is that I only know of this First Born stuff from headlines regarding parents refusing medical treatment to their children because they are First Borns, and therefore do not think they need modern medicine but rely on spiritual healings. Please clarify.

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Ya, those are the guys. What’s with all the conspiracy stuff?

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Is this Church of the First Born the same sect that believes in spiritual healing and raising the dead? I only know about those guys because they take miracle healings literally and have refused proper medical aid to some of their children, resulting in a few deaths of treatable things like diabetes, ruptured spleen ect… If it is the same group, this is a sad example of groups that fall to tragic outcomes by taking the Bible and the more miraculous aspects of religion too seriously. Sorry, off topic, but that’s really all I know of the group.

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i wonder if there are any non-white actors in this movie.

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Swimordie, stop feeling Randy. He said he’s ticklish.

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Good topic. I think we really need to look at the purpose of reporting the FV. Missionaries never discussed it, and it wasn’t a part of the miracle of the restoration. Only when things were falling apart in Nauvoo did JS deliver the official and final version of the FV. The official 1838 FV was a response to the surrounding problems; a failed bank, the failed law of consecration, the problems with polygamy, and JS loosing a lot of his top dogs when Harris stood up in the temple and said he never actually saw the plates. JS was desperate to reinstate his authority as church leader. What better way than to assert it with divine authority? The first vision evolved from a nice little spiritual moment of solitude, to a full-blown mandate to save the world.

I remember Bushman suggesting that JS simply chose to omit certain details of his vision when originally writing it down. He really doesn’t offer any explanation as to why a kid would forget to mention God and Jesus appeared, and that he had an all-out fight with Satan, and that he was commanded to restore heavenly order upon the earth. I am not troubled by this because I really don’t buy it. It makes more sense to me that JS merely said what he had to, when he had to.

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I love Apocalypse stuff. In regards to Mormon history, the beginnings of the church certainly placed an emphasis on the 2nd Coming. JS’s letter to a political group that announced his candidacy for President included the phrase, “the end is nigh!”.

From reading Rough Stone Rolling, there are a few different references to prophetic dating of the Apocalypse. First JS claimed it would occur within half a dozen years, next it became 1843, then the quote “more than 40 years will pass before the second coming of the Son of Man.” Finally, missionaries preached of the millennium.

There is a great book called The History of the End of the World. It follows different events and groups in history and their relationship to the Book of Revelation. The end is always nigh. How long before we are no longer called saints of the latter days?

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I always (alright, I only recently discovered there were debates about this) found it fascinating that Mormon theology can be so specific about certain heavenly details, and yet still the leaders cannot agree who the heck God, Jesus, Adam, Michael, the Father and the Son really are. The names pertaining to roles makes sense, the hierarchy makes sense, the godhead kind-of makes sense. Eternal matter and God being a man makes sense. I’ve been reading Paul Toscano’s Strangers in Paradox, and he’s got some interesting theories as well, including the Heavenly Mother and Jesus being the one and only God. I swear, man, I’ve been confused recently as to whom I am actually praying to! Shouldn’t this have been cleared up by the church ages ago?! And for the record, I’m still holding out that Jesus is a clone of God and is therefore both the Father and the Son and is sacrificing Himself.

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Ray, MH, great points!

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