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DoubtingTom, before I went inactive, when I was trying to still appear outwardly TBM while privately seeking out alternatives, I felt like I couldn’t hear my own inner voice that would let me think clearly and would lead me to investigate possible alternatives, so loud were the LDS voices. It felt that as long as I was still attending the LDS church, doing my calling every week, etc., I’d be unable to really gain an accurate sense of what my other options were, or, to extend the glasses analogy, I felt locked out of the room with all the frames for trying-on, disabled by my same old pair with its same old prescription that had grown foggy for me. So I did go inactive for a few years. And it did allow me to enter the room with all the other glasses. I did things like visited churches with friends who belong to other Christian denominations, had lots of conversations with people about religion, watched sermons online, read Christian apologetics and books on Eastern religions and books defending atheism… And I’ve concluded, after all that, that for me, staying LDS, even without the “proper” testimony, and no longer “temple worthy”, while also pulling in bits and pieces from other traditions, is my best option. (That was just my experience. I am sure there are those who can investigate other ideas just fine while remaining active LDS.) But I had the luxury of a spouse who was fully supportive of any level of church activity that I felt comfortable with. It’s harder to consider inactivity knowing that one’s significant other will be negatively affected.

As far as where/how to start… I thought about what aspects I value of the LDS tradition, and what aspects were not working for me, and then I tried to find some tradition or belief system that had as much of the “baby” as possible with as little of the “bathwater” as possible. I found that every option I looked at had either too little baby, or too much bathwater or both, but your baby and bathwater will look different from mine, so don’t be deterred from searching! Even though I’ve come full circle and crawled back to the LDS church in which I was raised, like the dog to his vomit (j/k!!!), I will never stop searching. There is always more beauty (I won’t say “truth”) out there waiting to be discovered. I hope that you find much joy in the journey.

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I wanted to pop in and say that I joined this forum and was very active on it for the first month or so after joining, but have recently been on very little, because life is so busy. Meeting and “talking” with people in this forum gave me the courage and support I needed to become active again after being inactive for several years. I take my older kids every week now, for all three blocks. Now, whenever things are said in a church setting that I have a hard time with, I can handle it better because I know there are so many people here in this group who would also feel as I do. I think about the people in this group every week, and it gives me comfort and strength when I would otherwise feel too isolated with my unconventional, or some would say “lack of”, testimony. I hope to be here more often when life becomes calmer, in order to be a regular support for others. So for me, even though I rarely have time to post, now, this forum was a gateway to reactivation…and things are going well. Just knowing you all are here makes me able to stay.

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Reuben wrote:

I wonder if there’s a unifying theory of harmful doctrine. Are they always based in fear? If so, can I watch for them mostly by looking for the word “Satan”?

I was thinking we could answer this question by listing all the harmful doctrines and noting whether they are all based in fear. But I realized that almost ANY doctrine I can think of can be construed as either helpful or harmful, depending on how I think about it. …except the no-gay-marriage policy, and a couple others, maybe.

But one reason we went inactive a few years ago was because I got burned out of reteaching or “un-teaching” my kids every Sunday after church – you know, trying to undo the things they’d been taught that we felt were damaging or biased in a bad way. But I definitely agree that with at least some kids, it seems we have to actively teach them what we believe when it’s different from what the church teaches, or they’ll assimilate the church-view.

That is a challenging situation. Thank you for sharing. I think often about how to handle the gaps between my beliefs and the church’s teachings, with my kids: how much to tell them now, and how to say it, and what is best left out or left alone until they’re older. It’s difficult, but it sounds like you’re really thoughtful about it, and aware of your kids’ differences in temperament and personality, and in how they each internalize what they’re taught, so you’re probably navigating it beautifully.

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ydeve wrote:

The only things that come to mind are:

1) The idea that our gender is an eternal characteristic of who we are doesn’t mesh well with reincarnation, with the understanding (and stories) of people’s gender possibly changing from life to life.

2) The church (and Joseph Smith) officially teaches/taught that reincarnation is false doctrine, for whatever that’s worth. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/08/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

Maybe we can believe in reincarnation if we believe we’re always reincarnated as the same gender each time.

Regarding the five points in the link from your point #2:

1. Paul said a lotta things. Mormons have always played pick-n-choose with Paul. One verse in Hebrews? Ehh, whatevs.

2. Maybe we get to pick our favorite human body during the resurrection. Whichever one we like best can be the one we keep for eternity.

3. We can get around this one if we only subscribe to human reincarnation.

4. Reincarnation isn’t the only concept that implies that we can work out our salvation in future lives. We do baptisms for the dead, even for people who may have been introduced to the Gospel during their mortal lives, in order to give them a chance in their next life to still accept the Gospel. So why couldn’t some people be given another earthly life to work some stuff out?

5. Reincarnation doesn’t downgrade Christ’s earthly mission and Atonement. For all we know, Jesus only had one earthly life, or perhaps his earthly life of which we have record was his last one.

(For the record, I don’t actually personally care whether reincarnation exists or not. I just think it’s fun/interesting to think about.)

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Thanks for the clarification on “elevation”. I think I understand it a tiny bit better, now…maybe.

Reuben wrote:

I agree. This is what finally caused my sister to lose faith: she realized that she had felt those same positive emotions while watching Disney movies.

That’s interesting. I always feel “the spirit” during that part on “Finding Nemo” where all the fish are caught in a net and being hauled up, and Nemo gets them all to swim downwards, and because they all stop panicking and work together toward their common goal, they save themselves. I felt “the Spirit” when I was 15 and read C.S. Lewis’ space trilogy, and at the time, because I was raised in the Church, I interpreted that to mean that creatures really did live below the surface of Venus, lol. But, see, I don’t think that feeling the Spirit in contexts not church-related falsifies the supposition that the “Spirit” exists. The “Spirit” can still exist, and perhaps simply manifests when we’re exposed to beauty, or truth, or any noble virtue. In the “Finding Nemo” example, we could say that the Spirit bore witness of the power of focus and teamwork. But I think it might be helpful for Church members to realize that when the feel the Spirit, it might be witnessing of the truthfulness of a principle behind the story, rather than the historical accuracy of the story itself. When I watch that part of “Nemo” and feel that feeling, it doesn’t mean that at some point, real fish were actually engaged in that activity. Likewise, I believe that when I feel the Spirit while reading scripture, it doesn’t necessarily mean that that event actually took place; but just that the principle behind the story is beautiful or morally right. I grant that the story may have taken place; I just no longer gauge the historical accuracy of a document by whether I feel the Spirit while I’m reading it. My bishop gives some good counsel about this: He says that when we feel the Spirit we should ask ourselves of what principle or assumption it is bearing witness.

SamBee wrote:

Besides which there is whole theological argument here over the interface between the spiritual and physical. If the spiritual realm does actually exist, then it can affect the physical and vice versa. I view it much in the sense of being an additional dimension – I think most of the time humans are unaware that there are other facets of our existence and our understanding of time and space are limited by our own perception.

I love thinking of the spiritual realm as a different dimension. I think it’s totally plausible. 🙂

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Reuben wrote:

Have you been reading about a feeling called “elevation”?

Haha, no! I’ve been reading about norepinephrine levels, thalamic activation, etc., in practices like meditation. Is “elevation” the same as what we call “feeling the Spirit”?

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Roy wrote:

squarepeg wrote:

It didn’t occur to me at age 12 that reincarnation might be incompatible with LDS theology!

It is only incompatible because we say it is. We already believe in eternal progression. Perhaps multiple mortal probations are necessary for some to learn what is needed.

Good point, Roy. Nothing in LDS doctrine/theology comes immediately to mind when I try to think of something that contradicts reincarnation.

nibbler wrote:

squarepeg wrote:

My older kids (ages 11 and 12) wanted to stay for all three hours, today.

That does sound like a strange Sunday.

Right?! It took me years of parenting to figure out that the kids will choose to do all kinds of surprising things without being compelled, if no one is “making” them.

nibbler wrote:

One time my grandmother asks, “Do Mormons believe in reincarnation?” and I’m thinking, “Sweet, finally an opportunity to build on common beliefs, just like Ammon and the whole Great Spirit thing!” So I answer, “No, we don’t believe in reincarnation, we believe in resurrection.” Thinking that I’d score some “Mormons are okay” points with my grandmother.

Then my grandmother, a Southern Baptist, says, “Well I believe in reincarnation.”

😆 With grandmas, sometimes you just can’t win!

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Heber13 wrote:

if only more missionaries understood the difference between correlation and causation!

How about a Statistics and Research Methods quick course at the MTC! [emoji1]

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LookingHard, that’s facinating about the testosterone reactions of those people described in the podcast.

I agree that the absence of emotion sounds like clinical depression; that’s exactly how it manifests in my son. Maybe he has low T (although he is only 11)!

I think we can safely say that our thoughts and behaviors are influenced by neurotransmitter/hormone levels, but I think the extent to which those chemicals control our thoughts and behaviors is still a gray area.

In my quest to understand why I experienced an extended period of inability to feel God’s presence, I’ve been reading a little bit lately about the research on spiritual experience and how it interacts with levels of various hormones and neurotransmitters. I think there are some environmental situations that may make a person unable or less able to feel the Spirit, and that may be a permanent state for some people. I know of a few people who claim they have never felt the Spirit…ever. And they’re good people. Two of these people don’t go to church anymore, and I can’t say that I blame them. If I literally never felt the Spirit, I am not sure I would find enough of value in it to keep going. I wonder if something in their genetics or environment changed their hormone/neurotransmitter levels such that feeling the Spirit wasn’t possible for them, and that in turn affected their behavior (church attendance). (I am not implying that lack of church attendance is bad. I think everyone’s path is his own. I just mean to reinforce the point we’ve been making, which is that biology definitely profoundly affects thought and behavior in some circumstances.)

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hawkgrrrl wrote:

squarepeg wrote:

It would be nice if there were stories once in a while about times when a person prayed about whether to do the church thing or the career thing and followed a prompting to do the career thing, and how it brought them blessings. I can’t think of any stories like that, even though I’m sure it happens often.

This happened in RS in my Singapore ward one day. Three of us said exactly this same thing, that we had prayed and knew that we needed to pursue a career. Two of us were successful business women and one was a lawyer. All 3 high earners. Our bishop’s wife sounded incredibly depressed and said she didn’t know we were allowed to pray for things like that. I just thought, “Oh, honey.”

Awesome!! But so sad that the RS Pres didn’t know she could pray about career options. I didn’t know anything was out of bounds for prayer content! 😥

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ROld Timer wrote:

I believe strongly our children are being over-medicated, generally, but I also am deeply grateful for the advances in medicine that allow medications to be so widely available.[…]

Having said all of that, I do wonder how many visionaries we have lost and will continue to lose.

Regression to the mean. It’s good and it’s bad.

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ydeve wrote:

squarepeg wrote:

I have a question: I know of a guy who used to be gay and now has a wife and kids and is temple worthy and actually teaches at BYU. How do we explain his case?

Bisexuals exist. Bisexuality is a spectrum. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

Alternatively, some people are happy to be married to their best friend who they love platonically.

Thanks, ydeve. I guess I figured he wasn’t bisexual because I understood that he identified as purely homosexual. But he could be something like a 4.5 on the Kinsey scale, maybe, and that would allow a heterosexual relationship, that includes sex, to work long-term?

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Why can’t the bishopric council meeting be moved to another night, I wonder, so that he can attend the navy thingy and the church thingy, both?

Sent from my ONE E1005 using Tapatalk

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It would be nice if there were stories once in a while about times when a person prayed about whether to do the church thing or the career thing and followed a prompting to do the career thing, and how it brought them blessings. I can’t think of any stories like that, even though I’m sure it happens often.

I also don’t like the line that says something akin to, “If not for the decision I made that day, I’d never have become Prophet.” It seems to imply that the kids should all be aspiring to high-level church leadership callings by working their way up the ladder.

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Thank you for so much kindness. You guys are the best.

Everything went SO well. I didn’t need to worry about my son. During our walk home, he said, “I wouldn’t mind if we did this again! Second hour was GREAT, and third hour was totally tolerable.” He had a big smile on his face. I was so relieved. Later that week, he told me the Sunday School lesson had been about having the proper authority to perform ordinances like baptism, and he wasn’t sure whether he agreed with that, because it seemed weird to him that only men are allowed to baptize people, and because to him it seems like the authority to baptize should belong to whomever really wants to follow Jesus and wants to help others who also are trying to follow Jesus. We talked more about different levels of Priesthood authority, and about how women fit into things.

My daughter emerged from YW with a chocolate brownie! Haha. She said she wanted to politely decline but it was part of an object lesson about accepting grace, and it would’ve been awkward for her not to accept it. But there was a KIt-Kat bar that was offered at another point that she declined. So much sugar. Twice more this week she’s gone to church activities (Mutual on Tues, movie night on Thurs at someone’s house) and there has been lots of sugar at both, and she has declined it all. We sent her with a big plate of fruit to the movie night, and it got eaten up quickly! But she’s doing a great job of not eating all the junk food.

Roy wrote:

I tend to say things to my kids like “many people do believe that. There are also good people that believe differently.”

[…]

I should say that I do this with most things and not just things the kids hear at church. For example, I said this most recently to my 11 yr old DD when she asked me about reincarnation.

That’s a good way to explain it! Reincarnation reminds me of a funny moment. When I was a Beehive myself, a group of us girls were in the car of one of our leaders on the way to some activity, and I mentioned in the course of conversation that I thought I might sort of believe in reincarnation, and my Beehive leader turned around from the front seat and said, “Oh, NO YOU DON’T!” It was a very different approach than even my own then-TBM parents would’ve taken: telling a kid what she believes. That incident had so little effect on me that I forgot all about it and only remembered vaguely, years later, when someone else who was also in the car retold the anecdote. It didn’t occur to me at age 12 that reincarnation might be incompatible with LDS theology!

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