[startpoor]

Lol, should’ve posted a different source. The article itself is neutral though

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[startpoor]

Can’t believe the church allowed Bokovoy to do that. I hope it spreads. Though I can’t imagine they would make it much further in their careers with that info. If they do, we may have a respectful curriculum someday.

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[startpoor]

Yeah, he doesn’t seem to buy the fact that the church taught anything but the truth, and anyone who learned otherwise is an idiot, and that FCs are brought about by personal ignorance. I guess he’s too dense to realize that not everyone grew up in Utah with access to archival documents and any inkling that spending time sorting through them would be interesting.

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[startpoor]

I’ll have to give it a listen. I have heard him on mormon stories before and thought he came off very unsympathetic and arrogant. I know he’s a smart guy and written some theological books, but I would cringe every time he spoke.

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[startpoor]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

Sheldon wrote:

An excellent write up of the meeting is found here by Anonymous Bishop

Wow, that looks like a lot of this is about the Denver / Rock concern, that those guys are “false prophets” with an alternate path. Based on that write-up, that’s what it sounds like to me. IOW, conservative critics = false prophets, liberal critics = hippie love in free for all.

I take Oaks’ remarks about seeing Christ as a direct response to Denver Snuffer’s claim that he has. He’s saying “don’t buy it.” Again, that’s how I take his remarks.

Yeah, this is def the case. And I can’t imagine this response by Oaks is going to do much to help. Anyone on the fence about the motives of the leadership would see this as a clear signal to jump ship.

“And I now believe there is at least one true messenger, like Joseph Smith, in our day, sent from the presence of God. His name is Denver Snuffer. In the name of Jesus Christ I urge you to petition the Lord to know the truth for yourself and not reject my words because of my weakness, or the words of his servant today because of any weakness he bears.” -one of the comments to the above post. So weird. So much for the liberals and doubters of our kind being a threat.

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[startpoor]

The check and balance system is supposed to be the law of common consent. But it only works if the members take it seriously. Which they don’t.

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[startpoor]

Rob4Hope wrote:

startpoor wrote:

It would be hell for me. Which is why I sympathize greatly with people who choose celibacy on behalf of their religion, be it LGBT folk, singles, divorcees or catholic priests. Yet the church holds a carrot out in front of them offering promises if they endure to the end. My bishop believes LGBTs will become Hetero in the hereafter. I don’t blame him for thinking that way, I couldn’t do the job of bishop unless I believed that we were offering real hope to those who are keeping their covenants. Curious R4H, and you don’t have to answer publicly, but what are your thoughts on fornication as a divorced, faith transitioning person?

I have no problem answering your question. I am excommunicated right now, so there is “technically” nothing in the “Church” to prevent me from going out there and fornicating if I choose. And, MANY people who have no religion feel that what you do in your own relationships is your business, no one else s.

Your question can spin into two directions here, and since I enjoy dialog, I will answer it in such a way that it can divide if needed.

1) I do believe personally it is wrong morally to engage in sexual relations outside of marriage.

2) For the life of me, it frightens me to death to consider remarriage WITHOUT knowing we are sexually compatible.

And hence,..I have a conflict that gnaws at me as I date. And this is flat out being honest here.

According to SWK, the #1 cause of divorce back in the day was they didn’t get along sexually. The church doesn’t address that topic hardly at all (with the exception of the VERY recent FHE lesson). IN fact, the church has downplayed, IMHO, that topic. And yet, the divorces seem to still roll along. So its a dilemma for me at least.

Anyway SP,…there you go. Thoughts?

Ha! Thanks for the honest answer. I think people who haven’t been in sexual relationships think that sexual compatibility is a given, or that good sex just happens and has nothing to do with good communication. So it’s probably “easier” for young, “faithful” mormons to abstain from sex before marriage than for someone who has had such a relationship.

As I have faith transitioned, I have not thought so highly of waiting till marriage, but rather learning to be responsible and knowing how to communicate about it. I don’t think the fornication is a sin, but rather how we use sex (as a tool, as a weapon, with disregard for another’s feelings, with disregard for consequences etc) or if it is in the form of adultery. But that is because I believe in sins agains self and others, rather than sins against God (for the most part anyway, there probably are some ways we can sin against God.)

Why do you think sex outside of marriage is a sin?

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[startpoor]

It would be hell for me. Which is why I sympathize greatly with people who choose celibacy on behalf of their religion, be it LGBT folk, singles, divorcees or catholic priests. Yet the church holds a carrot out in front of them offering promises if they endure to the end. My bishop believes LGBTs will become Hetero in the hereafter. I don’t blame him for thinking that way, I couldn’t do the job of bishop unless I believed that we were offering real hope to those who are keeping their covenants. Curious R4H, and you don’t have to answer publicly, but what are your thoughts on fornication as a divorced, faith transitioning person?

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[startpoor]

Mom3 you’re probably right. I get those two confused all the time. That’s a good insight about the Boise/snuffer connection. I didn’t know that was where it went down. I thought it was in Utah. If that’s the case, the statement was probably directed to that crowd, who believe the leaders of the LDS church are in apostasy. But a blanket statement like that affects all who hear it, whether faithful like Bill, or the people for whom it may have been intended. Still, though, if I have to choose lines, I’ll take the one drawn at: “believe what you want, just don’t try and create followers.” And if someone does become a snufferite, I have no problem with the church drawing a line for them. That’s clear cut organizational apostasy. But the mantra of “who’s on the lords side?” Shows serious hubris when applied to those who follow the brethren. It leaves out every other religion, not just mormon apostates.

[edited to change all autocorrections from sniffer back to snuffer]

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[startpoor]

I listened to a bit of the audio too. Shocks all around. First shock came when they announced what the closing song would be. “Whose on the Lords side?” Really??? So sanctimonious for this type of “outreach.” Next came when DHO said what you quoted above. Why draw the lines like that? Just let the wheat and Tares grow up together to maturity, then let jesus do the separating. Next one came during Jensens talk. I was like, is he seriously going to insult everyone’s intelligence by bolstering the bofm on claims that JS was sooo unlearned and “you try writing a book in 90days.” I mean c’mon! You’re the church asst historian! You should have more insight than that.

But unlike you, I wasn’t hurt by it all. Maybe because I’m on the less believing end of the spectrum than you. Don’t know. But I am really sorry you feel this way, and you certainly have good reason to. You’re efforts to help the church are awesome imo. My TBM dad sometimes tells me “the church needs people like you.” It gives me strength to keep going. I am recently learning just how many members in my ward are struggling with faith issues related to historicity or social issues. It’s a lot! Every week now the subject is broached in one way or another. So yes, the church really does need people like you. Oaks doesn’t speak for the Lord, and on some level, doesn’t even speak for the church. This is not his church, but the Lords, and everyone who meets together in his name. I wish you luck as you work this out.

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[startpoor]

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[startpoor]

Thanks for sharing. After much nervousness our lesson wasn’t so bad. In fact the teacher stayed away from all the really hardline stuff, and we had a good disc about why things are different now than in the past if God never changes.

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[startpoor]

Looking hard: exactly. What the article teaches is the damage of the shame cycle. I went through this for years same as you. Shame breeds repeating the action that brought you shame in the first place. Teaching porn avoidance should be done much like teaching sex Ed. Learn how to do it responsibly. Ie, learn how to not ruin your relationships over it and have a healthy belief about it.

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[startpoor]

I get where you’re coming from. I gave up authenticity for a while, sacrificed it like you are doing, and it drove me crazy. I needed outlets. I needed to speak up. It got to the point for me where I just couldn’t fake it. Things were bad in my marriage whether I was authentic or not. A turning point for me was when I was asked to give a talk on the Restoration. It was a very honest and non-traditional talk where I told about the church’s transformative power in my convert parents’ lives, but how my testimony was challenged by learning evolution in school and how I still have struggles. But I quoted extensively from Crucible of Doubt, and praised the restoration for expanding the nature of God to help answer questions that couldn’t be answered by traditional concepts of God. Afterwards, a few people approached me about it, wanting copies of my talk or wanting to borrow Crucible. I have since formed some good friendships and have had some open minded people to talk to. They’re still full on believers, which I’m fine with, but they like to read and discuss things.

So my ward experience is now better than previously. I’m probably seen as a progressive, but mostly orthodox member. It helps that I have a large amount of liberals in my ward, and most of the conservatives are well educated. And it helps that my bishop and I can speak openly about my doubts but he still lets me keep my calling. I know not everybody has this. I still have rough weeks because despite this, we still have remarkably hardline lessons most weeks. But I have some wiggle room now in my ward to speak authentically, or at least provide balance to the discussion, but have garnered enough respect from the members that people will listen and sometimes thank me for my comments. So these little victories have brought capital into my relationship with my wife–she loves hearing when I had a genuinely good experience at church.

I’m not trying to give advice or even recommend you stray from what you’re doing. Just sharing in case it helps. Having peace at home is a very valuable thing. Though I’ve had victories, I still have a very tense marriage, and even finding private outlets like StayLDS can be tough because my wife knows I’m on it and feels like I’m on here criticizing something that is most important to her.

I hope things get better for you. PM me if you want to talk further.

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[startpoor]

Hey FS, I just gave you temple advice on another thread but thought I should check out your life experience and see where you’re coming from

I’m curious if there have been any new developments since joining here. Does your ward still see you as active? Have you been able to communicate with your wife more? It sounds like you’re married to an understanding person, but even so, these things are tough.

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