[startpoor]

FaithfulSkeptic wrote:

startpoor wrote:

A woman in our ward has been a new member for a few years now. She was recently endowed and came to church the next day with a look of horror and bewilderment. It was as though the church she had known now looked so strange and foreign to her.

That was my experience too. I haven’t found joy in attending the temple since, except on my wedding day and baptizing my kids there. I really don’t have the desire to attend at all right now (and I haven’t for several months). But my TBM DW loves the temple. I don’t want to go, but I don’t want to stop her from going, either. What’s the best way to navigate this conflict? When I go just to please her, it makes me resent going even more. But I know it really bothers her that I don’t want to go.

I tried to go for my wife, but she didn’t like doing with someone who didn’t want to be there. I at least try to support her in going–even though it’s just giving her a ride and watching the kids. When she does go, she usually comes back clear minded and refreshed, and has a softened attitude toward me. I don’t know your particular marriage situation, but my advice would be to see it as an act of charity, and see if that helps quell the resentment. Maybe do something other than endowments too? I have tried lots of different approaches in my marriage and most have failed. But the things that have worked have been support and knowing when to hold my tongue.

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[startpoor]

mom3 wrote:

To be fair on the flip side, I love Fiona Givens suggestion of encouraging people who have never attended the temple to attend some Catholic Masses, both are rituals in symbolism. Complete with kneelings, standings, hand wavings, and group prayers. Another point you could bring up is temple grounds. Even thought I too haven’t gone in for a long time, there is a beauty, serenity, joy, calm on the outside. I recently drove past ours in the car, and just looking at it briefly was calming and happify-ing to me.

You will do great. We are all cheering for you.

Thanks for the idea from FG, that is a great insight, I’m going to see if I can find where she said that.

Thanks also for all your stories both positive and negative for the temple experience. I want the lesson to be for both groups whether explicitly exploring both sides or not. It’s good to keep those in mind while preparing, and making a lesson that will appeal to both camps.

My experience was pretty neutral. I just accepted it out of obedience. I have had insights into the cosmos and creation both pre and post FC. I have also had times where I felt I was wasting an afternoon.

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[startpoor]

Ann wrote:

startpoor wrote:

I haven’t attended the temple in a while nor am I particularly fond of it. However, I respect that people find meaning and truth there.

Is there a way to work this refreshingly honest comment into a good, uplifting lesson, I wonder. I would give my eye teeth to have a discussion leader who felt comfortable saying something like this, but only if it was true, which in your case it is.

I often make admissions like this in my class, and they almost always help the discussion. People seem to appreciate the honesty of imperfection. Though it’s easier to say that about topics like FHE or sabbath observance than temple attendance. However, the aim of my lesson isn’t going to be about temple attendance per se, but rather about getting the most out of it–which may include talking about it more, or dealing with misgivings–so I could make such an admission, but would have to phrase it a little different.

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[startpoor]

amateurparent wrote:

Quote:

Intense internal pressure generally leads to explosion, no matter the nature of the pressure.

So, what GB said

And what Old-Timer said too.

A couple months ago, a single LDS friend confided to me that she had gone to the bishop and confessed her sin of mastrubation. Her temple recommend was taken over this. That just seemed so wrong to me. She felt shamed and made to feel less worthy over something that seemed so insignificant. I’m not sure why these topics are even asked about within the framework of religion.

Things like this make me want to shake people!!!

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[startpoor]

Well put GB. I don’t view sexual practices outside of marriage a sin either. That is, not against the Lord. I view them as a sin against my spouse if she is not accepting of them. And a sin against myself if I am letting it interfere with my health, career or relationships.

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[startpoor]

That is completely insane AP. And it is so common to think that way. It was so freeing to let go of that mindset during my FC. I’m sorry to hear about your losses.

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[startpoor]

DarkJedi wrote:

I’d love to do Robin Williams’s character in Dead Poets Society and tell everyone to rip those pages out!

And that is a lesson that cannot be improved on

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[startpoor]

I just read through the lesson and wow. It’s worse than I thought. I’m not convinced it is a doctrinally sound lesson even for the church. Of course I could think of numerous examples that counter what it was teaching, but that would make for a poor lesson. If I were to use the manual at all for this lesson, I might start by reading the church’s official statement on doctrine, which is that not every word spoken by a prophet past or present is considered doctrine, but rather is well regarded council. Then I might quote Lorenzo Snow as saying: “There were men in those dark ages who could commune with God, and who, by the power of faith, could draw aside the curtain of eternity and gaze upon the invisible world… There were men who could gaze upon the face of God, have the ministering of angels, and unfold the future destinies of the world. If those were dark ages I pray God to give me a little darkness…”

Then quote uchtdorf “mistakes were made…”

Then ask: wilford woodruff said that the prophet cannot lead us astray, how would you interpret that?” Then depending on the answers I would dig more: “so do you think he’s implying we be blindly obedient?” Or “in what way specifically can we not be lead astray?” Or “what if I pray about what the prophet says and I don’t get an answer, should I still follow him?” Or “john Taylor seemed to imply that God speaks to other men. If so, how is the prophetic mantle different?” “What does it mean for a prophet to hold keys?” I would try and help the class discern between administration of church affairs, wise council and doctrine. I would really refer to the text minimally. There are plenty of better quotes from other prophets you can use in the lesson. Get away from the ideal and try to bring the lesson into the reality of everyone’s lives. Playing devils advocate during a lesson is a good way to innocently question the primary answers people give.

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[startpoor]

I think there are basically three approaches to a lesson that troubles you: 1. Don’t teach it. 2. Confess to the class that you have some troubles with the doctrine being taught (though don’t go to into details, and this is dependent on your ward and comfort level). 3. Take a couple points from the lesson and teach using outside resources.

I think these are equally good approaches.

A good resource is the book Crucible of Doubt. It has a great chapter on prophetic fallibility that you can quote from directly.

Thanks for teaching this. If you are able to help one person through this it will all be worth it.

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[startpoor]

I think of sharing the gospel as a two way street where I talk openly about my church and beliefs and learn of the beliefs of others. I don’t try to convert anyone. Just talk. It is a very uplifting experience. If I thought mormonism might really benefit someone, I might recommend it to them. But I would probably not start with the missionaries.

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[startpoor]

amateurparent wrote:

Quote:

Startpoor wrote: I now realize there’s no way for me to change their mind, and I no longer need their sympathy, but I do want to garner respect, and to give respect in return.

For me, I find the boundaries are easiest when I stay away from the conversation. Essentially .. Quit poking at the wasp nest.

My DH is a wonderful guy. But we can read the same thing and come to vastly different conclusions. He chooses to believe certain things that I feel facts and evidence do not support. He finds facts and evidence that I consider bizarre. Certain topics are areas that we have decided are not open for discussion. Most topics are fair game. This works for us.

As far as extended family is concerned, some are very aware of my faith crisis, others are not. I work on being kind and supportive within the family and attempt to strengthen the relationships. We could argue all day over what is the perfect paint color … We had better not get started on what is the best way to be spiritual or religious.

One brother left the church years ago, when he visits parents, he brings a suit and goes to church with them. It makes the parents very happy. It allows them to show off their son to their community. They don’t want to hear about his religious differences, they just want to love him. There is a lot of wisdom in just allowing people to love you .. And returning that wholeheartly

I have tried to just not bring things up, and for a while it was working. But I’ve encountered some problems: one is that DW likes to poke the wasps nest sometimes which can unwittingly lead me into a rant.

Second is that there has just become too many taboo subjects in my relationships. I want to be the guy who shows up and goes to church with his parents when I visit. Right now I’m the guy who goes to church each week partly to support DW, and get the third degree about my intentions. I want to establish boundaries so I can both be respectful, and have respect. I want to handle accusations better rather than becoming defensive. I want to get to the point where accepted even if I’m not agreed with, and respectfully watch my words with others. I just can’t go forward avoiding so many subjects with people. It comes out eventually. Practiced control I think is a better road for me.

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[startpoor]

Sorry to be so brief, I didn’t realize it was such a broad topic. I’m talking about personal boundaries with my relationships: DW, sibs, parents, etc. regarding faith and beliefs. It’s a new concept for me–I usually just open up and debate people who accuse me of being deceived or whatever. I now realize there’s no way for me to change their mind, and I no longer need their sympathy, but I do want to garner respect, and to give respect in return. I’m not in a situation where people at church are giving me problems–quite the contrary, my ward situation is pretty good right now. But my family relationships need some work. Hence my need for knowing how to set and respect boundaries. Thanks for the responses so far. Very helpful.

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[startpoor]

I have been wondering the same thing myself. I think it depends on your leaders. I was once invited to a book club by my bishop of all people to discuss crucible of doubt. The discussion was open and refreshing. But there’s no SS group. I really like the name “gospel questions.” I think a class covering the gospel topics essays or teaching from crucible of doubt would be great classes. For pure church history, mormonism in context is a great website that has lessons already set up with teaching materials. Good luck on this. I Plan on Talking to my bishop about this soon.

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[startpoor]

Thanks Ray! These are both great resources.

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[startpoor]

Thanks Ann!

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