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Didn’t know this. Do you have a source? Sounds awful. I have seen a documentary about the scare tactics they use over there and the amount of hate was mortifying. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I finally took a minute to write out a list of what’s good about the church vs. what’s bad. Nearly everything I thought was bad about the church had to do with it’s central power structure. Ie self preservation vs. investment in the community, lack of transparency, outdated discrimination of gays and women etc. But everything good had to do with local structure such as community, opportunities to serve/teach/lead, and spiritual renewal. I realize that with a decentralized power structure we would be at risk for really conservative and really liberal congregations, but even then they would require local support for their congregations and would only be successful if they were supporting the needs of local members. So, just curious if anyone can name things that are good about the heavy influence of Salt Lake on our wards. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Also this: Quote:When I was investigating the church I was told that those who reject the church/Gospel are rejected by God in the next life. Even though I hadn’t received a spiritual testimony of the church I was baptized because I believed what I had been told. So from the beginning I had a fear of God and losing my salvation. I was a student at BYU at the time. We were taught often that God will hold us accountable for our sins of omission as well as other sins. I learned that God is a God of order and that order must be followed. In more subtle ways I learned that God is racist and for some reason puts women in a lower station than men. He is more concerned with outward performances, ordinances and policies than with people. Even though I was told God loves everyone, the other teaching far outnumbered and outweighed the God loves everyone teachings. Why would I ever trust a god like this? The reason I don’t leave the church now is out of fear for my salvation. I still fear that god. It’s been terribly difficult to change my views about God because of this.
I wonder for every TBM who bares their testimony of the blessings they’ve gained from being in the church, how many sit silently each month with this kind of anxiety in their hearts. This was definitely true for me as an adolescent. As I got older, I think I knew in my heart that this kind of God wasn’t really up there, but any time I let go of the iron rod, I would feel like I was just trying to justify my sins by creating a God who doesn’t care if I wonder off a bit.
Sorry for the late thread bump, but this issue is still on my mind a lot, and some recent conversations here have been of the same spirit. Regarding SD’s “I’m the one that changed” approach, that is definitely true. The church, I believe is bad for me right now. The conversation about stage 4 Mormons started by DBMormon explained this very well: a church that wants you to stay in a very well-defined and often arbitrary safe-harbor is very much a growth-stunter for someone growing out of a stage 3 paradigm. Though I’m still working on this, I mostly walk out of church with anger or exhaustion.
Regarding how the church is bad in general, like, for the entire world? That’s a hard case to make, if one can be made at all. I agree with the 1984 comparison. I thought this when I first went through my transition. Whether the church is run by men who intentionally hide the truth and try to manipulate/mind control it’s members, or is run by men who accidentally/incidentally hide the truth and “manipulate” people with good intentions and thoughts of saving families, the result is largely the same. The fact is they do spy on people a la 1984 with the Strengthening the Members Committee, and they have hidden the truth with the intention of preserving the religion. Though I don’t believe it’s malicious at all. They believe the religion is the best thing for the world and they preserve it and promote it. So is this really a bad thing? It depends on how you define bad. If it’s outcomes you want (ie moral members, happy members, good people, dedicated disciples, helping the poor) then the church is probably good. If you believe an organization that believes it is organized by God himself should behave with the utmost integrity and run itself in a fashion that respects the dignity of its members, well, maybe not so good.
It’s a really tough one for me. I often play the thought experiment of asking what would happen if the church ceased to exist? We would probably scatter to different organizations and religions, some conservative, some liberal. Yes, many people have had their lives saved by being converted to our church. But I’m not convinced another church couldn’t do the same for them. The vacuum left behind would likely be filled by other mostly good organizations. At this point, I’m just not convinced that any net gain is had by promoting good, measurable outcomes under false pretenses.
Glad you posted this, I have been thinking about this a lot lately, as SM has become much more painful lately and I now skip Sunday School altogether. I don’t think I hate the people themselves–I just hate all the perpetuated ignorance. I get frustrated because I believe that if they knew the hard truths about JS etc, the enthusiasm expressed on his behalf at the pulpit would almost vanish. Not everyone would leave the church though, many would stay, but they would be bearing their testimony about something else. When it’s people who do know their history, I don’t get nearly as irritated. My bishop for example, knows his history better than me, but still has a largely orthodox testimony that regularly offends me (and I tell him that) but I don’t get angry. I respect him and we can talk openly.
I heard a Lutheran pastor/radio talk show host do a show about Mormon Missionaries, and he made a good point (from a Lutheran perspective), which was: don’t get angry at them when they show up at your door, try and understand that they are products of their institution, and believe they are doing the right thing. Take them in, be kind, feed them, and bear your beliefs about Christ’s “true” nature.
I try and have that approach–while it may be wrong for me to only respect the beliefs of those who know their history–I still try and love them, and if I can, learn from them, and try and teach them too. But only out of the spirit of love.
Shared with my wife, who is notoriously stubborn about my FC. She was very receptive. In part I think because I have been the type whose FC leads them to abandon religion and blame the institution, and had never thought of the possibility that it was any kind if call from god. I appreciated that perspective. A couple thoughts: I am reminded of just how antagonistic the LDS church is to a faith transition. The very act of questioning the need of temple ritual and nit picky rules like tea drinking calls others in the faith and family to call you to repentance and call for you to return to the safe harbor the church provides. A happy marriage involves lots of temple ritual and rule following in our church. And we reward those who, as the essay states, retreat back into the stage of faith where they had success. Over the last year or so, I have been trying to pep talk myself into this mindset, telling myself to man up and be orthodox, and suffering from anxiety of not being able to do so. Refreshing read. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wish you peace of mind on the matter Shawn. Everything you said above is correct. Trust in yourself, take things one day at a time and don’t allow yourself to become bitter (nor passive). Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I’ll be thinking of some. My TBM-ish wife just got the Crucible of Doubt on audio. I REALLY hope it has an impact. We’ve always prided ourselves on being laid back, semi-intelligent members, but my FC has had a seriously bad impact on our marriage. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This short blurb from a post at bcc does a good job of summing up what the wow actually means for the church, and it’s really not about health: “I can think of three models for interpreting the Word of Wisdom:
1. Original literal intent: The 1833 revelation is taken literally. Excessive meat eating is out, as are wine and liquor, while mild barley drinks (beer) are in. “Hot drinks” = well, hot drinks.
2. Personally reinterpreted intent: Seeing the Word of Wisdom as a rather time-specific divine “greeting,” or example of best practice in antebellum healthy living, the believer adapts the principles to 2012, committing to living moderately and wisely. Maybe they drink tea, maybe they don’t, but if they do, it won’t be with too much sugar, because it is sugar (and the sugary food complex) that represent “evils and designs” in the 21st century.
3. Authorised reinterpreted intent: The 1833 text is not taken exactly at face value but is reinterpreted through official, normative channels in the LDS church. Thus, when considering what drinks are not kosher, official guidance from the church is sought, the answer in this case being “tea, coffee, alcohol.”
Only model two sees the Word of Wisdom primarily as a health code and it is the one most out of step with current LDS practice. That is telling. Model three is the official position of the church and while there are certainly health benefits to not smoking, drinking, etc., it is not the primary reason for adherence to the Word of Wisdom. Primarily it is about obedience to a principle that marks Mormons as different.”
Full post:
http://bycommonconsent.com/2012/09/11/why-the-caffeine-statement-is-important/#more-38589 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ray, though I’m no expert I don’t think not being able to quit something means you’re addicted. It’s when you can’t quit something even though it produces bad consequences like losing your job or deteriorating your health. I think that can happen with coffee (or food even) but probably less often than we say it does. One of the things that pushed me forward with drinking coffee was a testimony that was given in my ward. The lady said “even though there are health benefits to drinking wine and coffee, and they seem to be good social lubricants, I don’t want to be kept out of heaven by succumbing to them.”
I know most mormons are more chill than that, and that most just abstain because it’s part of being in the mormon community, and that makes total sense. I long ago lost the sense of community in mormonism because I moved around so much, and all my non-home wards have been large wards full of transient college students, so nobody knows you that well, and I don’t go out of my way to get to know all the new people. I have had a couple times where I was carrying a coffee across campus and was stricken with fear that an EQ presidency member would see me (all students)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hahahahaha, move over Robert Kirby. Just what I needed today. Here’s one of my own: Persecution: The act of a member of the church being sworn at while supporting a Prop 8 rally.
Thank you all. Just having support can be so helpful sometimes. Thanks also for the advice–amateurparent Quote:
So sorry that your life is complicated right now. Try the counselor again. If it isn’t a good fit, find another counselor. Keep looking. Maybe the marriage is salvageable .. Maybe not. But just taking time and effort to figure out the dynamic within the marriage will help you and your wife.I found doing some reading about boundaries was helpful for me personally. It helped me realize that iit wasn’t my job to keep everyone happy. Nor my job to tell people what they want to hear. It was my job to be honest .. In as kind and compassionate way as I am able.
We are going to try another counselor. I’ve met him before and feel good about him. About borders, I think I need to learn more about that especially now that my whole family is involved again
🙄 Border control.Quote:Mr. Richard, I’m sorry about your situation. Is there anyone in your ward or stake that has similar views as you?
Maybe. There is one sister who wears pants and has a feminist bent, and one brother who seems pretty liberal. I am kind of a timid person, but will have to make better friends with them. There’s also my bishop, who doesn’t share my views, but is well read and knows all my issues. He’s nice and we get along great. He has been my lifeline in the church. Once I get my problems to level out a bit, I need to talk to him more regularly just for the therapeutic effect.
Quote:You said,
Quote:Gained a personal testimony somewhere around 18, …
I would try to concentrate on how you got your personal testimony at 18 & try to get some degree of a testimony again as an adult. It doesn’t have to be perfect & work from there.Is there anything in the scriptures that inspire you? Is there any other books or scholars that inspire you? It doesn’t have to be
in the church. Maybe try to include you wife in this too.
Thanks, I always need reminders about the positive things. My personal testimony at 18 was one part: the power of conversion in turning people’s hearts toward god and reaping good outcomes in life, and one part: “the scriptures are so powerful–if this is true, it is the most beautiful thing in the world.” The last part was undermined by my general disbelief in the literalness of those stories, but the first part remains. I also believe in the power of prayer, blessings, even my patriarchal blessing (interesting related note–I read mine for the first time since my FC, worried that it would no longer have meaning to me and that I would lose one more thing. It was completely the opposite. I found much more meaning in it than I had before.) I also believe in being financially conservative, charity, following the spirit of the law, and repentance. I used to think I believed in Mormonism as an example of seeking out all truth and being accepting of all people, but a recent trip to a Unitarian church proved that we are nowhere near as good at it as they.
Quote:Regarding depression, you won’t get a good diagnosis here. (I don’t think any of us are a Psychiatrist.)
I wish you the best on your journey. Keep us posted.
Thanks for the concern. I read a quick bit on depression and realized I am just situationally depressed. I find school to be quite difficult right now in light of my marriage problems, but I am functional and have peer support.
Quote:I always recommend a cost benefit analysis in this situation. Look at the cost of doubt and uncertainty on your life, and marriage. If you can’t handle that cost, then look at being an outwardly devout Mormon as the cost of your relationship. It’s not easy, but people pay lots of different prices for the sake of their marriage. This might be the cost of yours.
SD–I think about this a lot. I don’t know how I could ever do that. Maybe I don’t love my wife enough. That’s what she believes. It is complicated I guess. On the one hand, it may be too late to convince anyone that I am anything but faking. My wife is extremely negative anytime I try to convince her I want the church to be a part of my life. When I volunteer to go to the temple with her, she feels like I would be insulting the lord. I have tried to do some version of being an outward member, but I always end up saying something negative (no matter how hard I try!) I think if I’m to be successful at this I need other outlets. Last week, my wife wouldn’t allow me to come to church with her because she needed to create a sacred space with no negativity. (and fwiw, I’m not blatantly negative or critical, ie, I don’t roll my eyes and recite lines from the CES letter to try and kill faith, I just give an honest opinion–if the speaker said she doesn’t drink coffee because she wants to see her family in heaven, I tell my wife that I disagree with that, which she usually follows up with “so you probably think it’s okay to drink too?”) So I went to a Unitarian church. It was a great experience, perfect for my level of belief. I went to the last hour of our church and just talked to people in the halls. I was much more positive because I wasn’t just trying not to be negative, I actually had something else to fill the void with. It’s a tricky game though, because she keeps asking where I’m going to go to church this Sunday. I know she wants me to say “of course, our church.” But I am not interested in going right now. I will gladly go for her, but I will have to try EXTRA hard to be positive. (Game of chess)
Quote:You clearly have a lot of angst, and I’m sorry that anyone has to go through this. More normal advice is take it slow, which I think you are, don’t dump all at once, which I think you haven’t, and focus on what you do believe, which I think you can do better at. You apparently have basic Christian beliefs and some Mormon beliefs. Cling to those and put the rest aside. If there are specific things you are struggling with (priesthood ban, Joseph Smith’s polygamy, etc.) this is a safe place to discuss them.
Thanks DJ. I used your advice in the past and it is good advice. Like I said above, I need to work on what I believe. Though I’m at a point where I no longer believe JS was a prophet or the other keystone tenets of Mormonsim, I do believe in many of its basic teachings. I don’t care about being a middle way mormon or making change anymore, I just want to find a way to make going to church not so torturous. I just want to get by. For my wife. Also my daughter (who is 3 and has already baptized all her dolls and herself and wants to be a missionary when she grows up–to each their own
🙂 ) My son hates church, but I guess that’s normal at a young age. I wish our primary program was better–more focused on teaching kids good principles and playing learning games and less focused on brainwashing.Quote:I live in Oregon and I believe it can happen other places also.
:clap: I am from Oregon, though I have only been to Springfield to go to the $1.50 theater when I visit my in-laws.Quote:I think it is great that you are learning about the community of Christ. I have learned from Baptists, Buddhists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, the Anglican Church, and the Evangelical Protestants. I think it helps to have an intellectual testimony as well as a spiritual one. We are dualistic beings, and have to fee our intellect as well as our spirits. My best friends outside the church are Agnostic and Buddhist respectively.
I agree that it is important we learn from other truths, especially if we take truth so seriously. Interestingly in my experience, the two things that get me into the most trouble with other believers, esp my wife and family, is when I tell them I have lost faith in the brethren as an unfailing guide, and when I tell them I had a good experience at another church. It proves to me that the church has zero tolerance for personal grown or exploration outside of its guidelines. When I talk to my wife about raising our kids, her biggest concern (and that of my parents) is that I will confuse the kids. I try and explain that while that may happen, they will also benefit from learning from parents how to get along with people who believe differently. (Argument not received well btw)
Quote:I empathize. This is a very sad story to me.
cwald, thank you.
Quote:Sounds like it’s been pretty rough for you and unfortunately none of us here has a magic pill that will make things work out. But know that we are all pulling for you and hoping for the best.
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Thank you too.
Things have yet to settle down. The pattern continues. My wife and I will have a great talk and feel loved by each other. The next day out of the blue, I’ll get a nasty text from her. Then we make up again. And now that she has called my parents again (which I have strongly counseled her not to do) my family is involved. I got a text from my dad telling me to man up and start being a good husband and father. This is the dad who is the most understanding. He also had a bit of a tendency to be a gospel bully though. I am left wondering if I am just being selfish. If I am, I don’t know how not to be. I feel like I have spiritual needs that are not being met. But in the process, I am disrupting my marriage. Based on the state of my marriage, I’m not sure I can have both spiritual nourishment AND a good marriage. I also wonder if I really am being a bad parent by abandoning my faith. I don’t mind if my kids are raised Mormon, but I just can’t stand the one-sidedness of the teachings they recieve. Everything they are taught is Truth. That’s going to confuse them more than anything, as it did me. I still have a hard time explaining this to my wife, because there are so many happy families in the church (sometimes an illusion, but speaking from personal experience, mine was a good one though not close to perfect.) Therefore staying in is “good” and leaving is “uncertain.” Now when I attend, it’s like a liberal attending a tea party rally (which it kind of is anyway.) Just a bad experience. Don’t know how I can just fake it. Besides, my wife would never buy it. I’m a terrible liar.
Our fifth Sunday was the usual “here’s why missionary work is so important, let’s spotlight the members who are doing the most, and here are some new programs we’re rolling out.” There wasn’t any fanfare music or glitter cannons, but it would have fit right in 
We’ve had “Hastening the Work of Salvation” as a theme for the last three Sundays (Ward conf, Stake conf, fifth Sunday) and I’m getting a little burnt out. If GC is more of the same, you will probably see a news article in it soon of an LDS father of two who lit himself on fire during a demonstration in a mormon parking lot. Just giving you heads up
:crazy: [edited to add crazy face instead of smiley face]
Curtis wrote:There is an older thread here about Denver Snuffer. The consensus here is not positive or supportive of him, frankly.
“
Observation about Denver Snuffer’s Appeal” ( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4910&hilit=snuffer If you want to comment on that thread and bump it up for more discussion, go ahead.
Thanks Curtis, I just read through that post. I admit I wasn’t up on my Denver Snuffer knowledge, but what you said about the history having to be severely distorted to support what he teaches was spot on. Some of the interpretations used to justify the teachings being presented required more knowledge about the history than can possibly be gleaned from the reported texts and verses used.
