[Stayforthedip]

I wanted to write a follow-up about how things went. I am tempted to post my whole talk, but there is way too much personal/identifying stuff in there. So here are the highlights.

I was the concluding speaker, which was awesome. The downside was the man before me spoke about 10 min over his time so I was left with only about 10 min. I had planned for 15. I had to cut out the most (or at least most potentially) controversial part–which was what I posted before about the temple.

– I emphasized that men do not equal the priesthood. And I had Oaks to back me up.

– I told stories about people who are not Mormon or are not practicing but how they still honor the priesthood/power of God by mourning with those who mourn, etc. (I like to push back on the idea that Mormons have a monopoly on goodness whenever I can)

– I told some hard personal stories that humanized me and I think earned me some sympathy points to cover the stuff people may not have liked as much

– I equated the Atonement with working to become healthier, happier, better people. I wanted to make the idea of it accessible to non-believers. So I was speaking in Mormon-ese, but was putting in my terms.

– I told scriptures stories that involved women.

– I quoted women about 50% of the time.

– I said ‘hell’ once and that felt pretty good over the pulpit 😈

After the meeting I had a ton of people thank me for my talk. Some more ‘conservative’ people even said they really liked it. The person that asked me to give the talk said I killed it and he wants women to always be the concluding speaker now. So it was well received and I am quite happy about.

I was telling my husband I was bummed that I left out the part about the temple, but he pointed out that it was probably better. I pushed some people already on some things, and this way I build up more credibility. I didn’t cross any boundaries so I will still be asked to speak again and I will have even more authority next time.

Anyhow, it was a great experience. It showed me that I can stay, I can make a difference, and I can still feel like I am true to myself.

[Stayforthedip]

I appreciate all your suggestions and feedback. I am going to separate my talk into 2 parts: 1) the priesthood and 2) fathers. I start by explaining that they are separate topics because men doesn’t = priesthood (and I have quotes for Oaks to back that up).

But I kind of want to push the envelope and try and make people consider another side to things. Tell me your thoughts on this:

“The temple is full of symbolism and gives an overview of how the earth was created, the role of Adam and Eve and how we can again return to Heavenly Father. The temple is a window to the celestial and perfected. Looking in that window, we see women participating in the priesthood, including the power, and authority to officiate in ordinances. Thus, we can only assume that in our perfected states, men and women alike will hold, officiate, and fully use the priesthood. “

What do you think? Too liberal? Too feminist? My ward is a mix of pretty black and white members, some more open minded and lots that don’t show their cards. So it could be received pretty well by some and also upset others. I don’t want to be viewed as radical, but I also want to open eyes a little. (Plus, as I have said, I am pretty agnostic, so to me anything is possible!)

[Stayforthedip]

I think I am in a fairly similar place as you Journey Girl. I have gotten to a place of real peace, but it has been years in the making (and I am not that old!). But there are still ups and downs and tricky situations. I like SD’s advice. I especially agree that it is wise not to tell anyone (at least in your church circle) of your disbelief. That was hard for me at first because I wanted to scream every week at church. But this forum really helped me come to see that being myself doesn’t require sharing my deepest (un)belief with everyone I meet.

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Each move is calculated to preserve your cruising range (options) in the future.

This is SO important. Part of my belief now is that I leave room that I am totally wrong and it really is all true! So I am trying not to burn any bridges, even as I step back more and more.

I too have given up my temple recommend (by not renewing it) and have stopped wearing garments most of the time. But as part of my ‘not burning bridges’ theme, I still wear them to Mormony things. I see it as a sign of respect for those who believe and as a sign of commitment to my husband.

Along those same lines, I still hold a calling (actually a fairly ‘high’ one on a local level). This is how I see it: if I was part of any other club, I would feel the need to pitch in and put in my time. So I do a job at church and do it the way I am comfortable with. Others see me happy, smiling and helping and they don’t assume that my soul needs more saving. Win, win.

I don’t live in Utah and where I am there are very few Mormons, but several years ago all my friends were Mormon. It made it very hard during my faith transition to feel like everything in my life was Mormon. So I have worked very hard to make other friends and associations and that has helped a lot as I have stepped back from church. But it has also shown me that I really like Mormons! They are my people. So while plenty of things drive me crazy, I can cope with most of it now.

One last thing. It has really helped to not attend church every week. I usually make it a couple of times a month. And I always have a great excuse–out of town or sick kid or something (and I don’t lie!). But I use every opportunity possible to skip a week and that makes things easier.

So I guess, to sum it up: I am letting Mormonism into my life where and when it fits. I make it an active choice and don’t feel guilty. But I also don’t feel the need (anymore) to educate others on how crazy Mormonism is

[Stayforthedip]

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Real life is lived in the middle. There is nothing wrong with compromise out of love and respect, as long as it isn’t truly destructive to you.

At first, moderation can be difficult, but it is wonderfully liberating when it becomes more natural.

Ray–Thanks for these words of wisdom. I have had them playing over and over in my mind and it has been a real comfort. Sunday felt much lighter and happier as I moved through church. I repeated my new mantra “Real life is lived in the middle” anytime things bothered me. It reminded me to be gentler on myself and others as we all figure things out. I look forward to moderation feeling more natural

[Stayforthedip]

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Have you ever had an honest prayer with God about your feelings about the church? Indicating the problems you see, how it impacts your faith?

I stopped praying(privately, I still pray when called on at church or home) about 2 years ago. A large reason why is because I felt abandoned by God. I had a very difficult family situation that I prayed for resolution and help with for a couple of years. It ended in heart break and seemingly without any intervention by God. At some point, maybe about a year ago, I thought that maybe Heavenly Father had left me, but surely if there was a Heavenly Mother she would comfort me. I prayed to her several times and expressed my hurt and anger and sought Her wisdom. But I still felt nothing. I don’t know if the problem is me–maybe my heart is too hard–or not. But either way, it lead me to feel much more agnostic. I wouldn’t say I am atheist, because I am indecisive and non-committal and I want to leave room for change. So yes, I have called out to the heavens about my feelings with the church and my faith issues, but for me, all I heard was an echo.

[Stayforthedip]

I would say this site has helped me stay. When I first found it (I started reading maybe 3 years ago?) I felt like a heretic and stopped looking for a while. Then I came back to it when I was in a really angry stage and felt like I was the only one in the world that saw the church for what it really was. It really helped me to chill out when I saw that I wasn’t the only one like this. And then I finally started posting a while ago and though I haven’t written much, it is also helpful to have a place to put questions and engage and know it will be supported. I don’t know that I will be mormon forever, but if I ever leave it won’t be because of the site. If I stay for a while longer (and I plan to), it is certainly aided by this site.

[Stayforthedip]

It’s been a long time since I have been asked to give a talk. (Great, now I am probably going to get asked.) But when I do, I usually take one element of the topic and spin off into something I think is more important/relevant/useful/interesting. You are a volunteer speaker. Speak to what matters to you!

Plus, 90% of the people will only catch 10% of what you say. So throw in some scriptures and quotes and no one will be the wiser

[Stayforthedip]

I wanted to give another big thank you to SD for the recommendation to check out http://www.marriagebuilders.com/

I read through a ton of material on the site and then had a long discussion about it on our date night. It gave us a great way to start talking more about how to meet each others’ needs. It also helped me realize that the issues I brought up here before really aren’t relevant to me having a happy marriage. We aren’t on the same page ideologically, politically, or religiously always, but we can meet each others’ needs very well still.

So thank you so much! I highly recommend the site to anyone looking to improve their marriage. If nothing else it gives you a lot of food for thought.

[Stayforthedip]

Thanks so much for the replies. It is nice to hear different takes on this.

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My advice would be dependent on what your spouse thinks to some extent when it’s regarding his family. When you say a confrontation about beliefs, what does that mean exactly? How will they react?

Hmmm, I hadn’t thought of this angle. My husband has been supportive, but quiet about my shift in wearing them. I think he privately quite enjoys the change (for ‘private’ reasons) but is glad I still wear them to church and don’t make it obvious. I am not sure I want to get his opinion on whether I should wear them around his family, mostly because then I would feel bound to that, and I want to make my own choice. Kind of like asking him, “Should we have chicken or beef for dinner?” and then making whatever I feel like anyhow. Why ask in the first place then? But I see your point.

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For me, when I go visit staunchly Mormon family I will wear the garments. I see it in part as a respect thing. If I were visiting somewhere where a burka or hijab was considered the custom then I might put one on out of respect.

This is why I have continued to wear them to church and other churchy functions. Even if I don’t believe in their value anymore, it is just part of fitting in. It’s like a dress code, as SD said. Also, they are a symbol of my marriage and I am happy to honor that in certain places.

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When you say a confrontation about beliefs, what does that mean exactly? How will they react?

I think my own parents would probably die. Or stop speaking to me entirely (which isn’t unappealing at times). My husband’s family is much more loving, so confrontation is too strong of a word. But I can see them asking questions out of concern and I don’t do well in those situations. I get stubborn and defensive and then have break downs after. And I know it will be discussed because I have seen it before with extended family that chose not to wear garments at a reunion at the beach. All the women were talking about it. “Well, it’s her life, but that’s sure an interesting choice” kind of statements. So not super harsh, but definite judgment and behind her back kind of talk. Actually, seeing her not wear garments on a beach vacation made me super jealous and is part of what made me reevaluate my wearing. Maybe that is why we all evaluate and judge others choices? We are just jealous!

[Stayforthedip]

Would people seriously report you for not showing up in a suit and tie?!? That’s absurd. That was going to be my first suggestion– go casual and keep it friendly and light. Nobody (well at least I don’t) needs an intense visit. Most people are just happy to have someone to call when they need a blessing or help moving. I personally prefer when we don’t get visited at all. Just let me know you are there to help when needed and I am good.

[Stayforthedip]

Thank you for all of your helpful, supportive replies.

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That is what I would focus on–the fact that one of your kids could be gay, and even if not, there is no question that they will have gay friends.

I did point out to my husband that my biggest worry in how we present this is that one of our children may come out as gay (not that I see signs, just statistically there is a chance), and I never want a child to look back and be hurt by what we said or taught in regards to that. My husband never says anything negative about being gay or gay marriage, he just doesn’t talk about it. So yeah, maybe its one thing I just let drop for now. The bigger issue is how do I feel close to him when I feel like some topics are off limits.

SilentDawning–that marriage website is an excellent recommendation, but it also highlights my worries. Some of his (Dr. Harley’s) principles for a good marriage are 1) 100% honesty and 2) joint agreement–meaning you never do anything your spouse doesn’t enthusiastically support. I feel like both of those are going to be so hard for us now. I don’t feel able to be open and honest about how I feel a lot of issues that relate to the church. And while I am willing to continue with much of our church activity in support of my husband, it is taking a lot of mental compromise on my part.

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It’s the distance and wariness of each other. It’s sad and difficult.

This is what is so hard. I feel like I have lost my best friend. I feel like I have to tip toe around things. We came into marriage so in sync and now it just feels so out of whack. I am not the girl he married, and it makes me so sad to think that if we met for the first time now, he wouldn’t likely even date me.

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I had to deliberately bring things into our relationship, or bring things back from earlier times in our marriage, that had good associations and potential to bring us together. I’m not in autopilot anymore, agreeing with him about most things said and done at church, or happy to socialize 99% of the time with LDS friends. Find things to fill the voids.

I think this will be my goal for the next while–fill our marriage with things that bring us together and worry less about what separates us now.

Thanks again for the support.

[Stayforthedip]

I haven’t been in this exact situation, but my daughter was hesitant to be baptized. We told her it was absolutely her decision and there was not need to feel like she needed to do it right when she was 8. She did end up getting baptized at 8 and I do think church leaders played a big role in that. She was happy with it and so I think it ended fine, but I was worried that she would look back and feel like she was pushed too much. I’m not sure how to counter all that leaders and teachers in church do to push a kid a certain way.

My son will turn 12 soon too and I am sure he will want to get the priesthood so that isn’t our issue. But I don’t have a temple recommend and so when it comes time for his first baptism trip to the temple, it will be tricky to figure out how to present that to him….

Good luck wit your son Holy Cow. It’s tricky to navigate, especially since some of these decisions come when they are still so young!

[Stayforthedip]

Some of the best advice I ever heard was when my spouse was extended a stake calling and the counselor said to him, “Be careful not to sacrifice your family on the alter of service.”

This is what my parents have chosen to do and as a result their relationships with their children and grandchildren have really suffered. I feel bad for them because they feel they that in giving their life in the service of the church they really will be blessed. But as for right now, they have lost much more than I think they will ever gain.

[Stayforthedip]

Okay, now I see that ‘faking it’ was a loaded term. I didn’t mean to suggest people are trying to live a double life or deceive others. I have just had my eyes opened to how many people may have very, very serious doubts as to the church’s truth claims, but choose for whatever reason to appear to be a fully active believing member.

So, I just wonder how many people at church have real, serious, sincere doubts, versus how many believe with ‘every fiber of their being.’ I know there is no way to measure and that it is all a scale. Learning that a close relative and I share the same disbelief really honestly shocked me. As the relative’s spouse said, “I didn’t know I married an atheist. I thought I married a Mormon.” Well, they did marry a Mormon, but here we are.

[Stayforthedip]

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or that the membership doesn’t associate closely or frequently enough with the larger community?

Square–I think you are so right about this. Even (or maybe especially) in places where Mormons are a very tiny minority, we can be a very insular group. Ironically, as a step away from the church (mostly mentally) and move more into the larger community, I have more opportunities to share the gospel. But, that’s not something I feel comfortable doing now…

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