[stealthbishop]

I agree with how Brian put it. Very well said.

I would also say that I am more of a English, Poetry, Theater, type of guy. I think if one is more of an engineer or math person then metaphor, poetry, symbolism and such might perhaps be difficult to begin with. I can’t seem to get enough of that stuff so for me it was a natural transition from mostly literal to mostly symbolic. The other thing that helps me is that Jesus used a massive amount of metaphore and symbolism. He was usually taken literally and therefore misunderstood. Knowing this also helps me.

[stealthbishop]

First of all, I am sorry for what you are going through. It’s painful enough to go through a divorce. My POV is that this bishop needs to be corrected. Part of sustaining him is to help someone when they are really off track. This bishop needs some major help. You need to do what is best for you but I believe his SP needs to know about this and if the SP doesn’t support you, I think you should write a letter to the First Presidency. Of course, you know your situation better than anyone but this bishop is so out of line. You were exactly right to point out in the CHI where it tells bishop to exactly not do this kind of thing. I am SO sorry. This is an example of ecclesiastical abuse in my opinion and I’m concerned that if he would do this to one of his own counselors and friends he would certainly feel at liberty to abuse others.

[stealthbishop]

😯

I think you should write a letter to the First Presidency. When a SP makes such a gross error they need to be corrected. The only way things will change in the church is if we speak up. I would seriously consider writing a letter to the FP.

[stealthbishop]

Thanks Heber13. This is awesome!

I also see all or nothing thinking connected with the Fall and the partaking of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden parable.

[stealthbishop]

Word of Wisdom issues are not serious sin. I view sexual abuse and physical abuse of children as one of the most serious sins. Abuse of spouse would be another serious sin.

Other bishops–tough to say. Bishops truly are like judges. Judges interpret the law and we all know there are good judges that make decent decisions and bad judges that should be impeached. Same is true for bishops but you can’t impeach them–you can vote to oppose them rather than sustain them but that would be gutsy beyond beleif and I’m sure people are scared of the potential consequences.

I don’t know how many there are out there who would interpret things the way I do. I hope there are more and more.

[stealthbishop]

SilentDawning wrote:

the long hairy arm of the stake, with the Melch Priesthood leaders reporting to the SP, as well as meetings crawling with High Counselors waiting to correct everyone on policy is where the true test of whether there is as much liberality as they say.

Also, every widescape policy has unintended consequences — we shall see what bulletins and updates come out over the next year or so as we respond, as an organization to these changes.

Loved your analysis SD. Spot on!!

I think it is good to be cautious. Yes, we have already had a few “discussions” with the Stake and I can see the pressure you are referring to. However, the bishoprics in our stake have won a few battles already with the back up of this training on their side.

[stealthbishop]

cwald wrote:

I want to believe that it is a step in the right direction, BUT, I’m so weary of getting hopes up only to be let down again and again.

Perhaps Bishop, even with all the good quotes and direction the leaders mentioned, I’m still having a tough time reconciling the part where they say all that, and then change the MP ordinations and church ordinations from “worthy” to “temple worthy.” That is extremely dangerous, IMO, will chase many moderate mormons from the ranks, and goes against everything BKP said in last Spring’s GC.

That’s a tough one for me too. Just FYI, my SP made a distinction between temple worthy and holding an actual temple recommend. He said that the restriction for MP ordination would be for those “involved with serious sin”. He did not elaborate and I didn’t want him to either. So, that made me feel better and that I have some breathing room on that issue. But, I realize that not all SPs will make that distinction. For the record, my SP is pretty conservative–nice guy though.

[stealthbishop]

cwald wrote:

Here is the summary Ray posted and the ongoing discussion. http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1989” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1989

Thanks for the link cwald. Ray did a superb job summarizing the meeting and hit all the things that struck me as remarkable.

[stealthbishop]

Ray,

This is EXCELLENT. Thank you for posting this. Your post will be very helpful for me to refer to since last time I checked there was not a transcript of the roundtable discussion. As a bishop, this is more than I could have hoped for and it came at a crucial time for me. Thanks again my friend.

[stealthbishop]

Welcome Kyle! I hope you feel safe and very welcome here and that the comments and posts on this board will be of value to you.

[stealthbishop]

Welcome Kevin. You’re amongst friends here. You’re not a nut. Just like many of us on here you are struggling and wanting to hold on to the good of the church. We stand with you. This is not a place of harsh judgements or unkindness. You are in a good place.

[stealthbishop]

Tom Haws wrote:

StealthBishop, when you consider the assumptions that many of the members of your ward bring to their relationship with their bishop, I’m sure it puts a great burden on you to act honorably and morally in this situation. How would many of them react to learn of your emerging heterodox outlook? I’m sure there would be a well-represented contingency with a huge feeling of indignation and betrayal.

What is your obligation in this situation to the principles of openness and integrity? How do you honor that? Do you resign your calling? Do you talk to your stake president? Do you simply start quoting the Bhagavad Gita and the Tao Te Ching in sacrament meeting? Or do you just start sticking more to the Sermon on the Mount and the Parables of Jesus and less to church leader statements? Whose responsibility is it to avoid offending “these little ones who believe in” Jesus?

My wife asked if I would bring up this issue.

Tom

It is a great burden. I think being a bishop is challenging even when you are 100% orthodox. As I have come through this crisis I have had to remind myself to be patient with myself. I’m still sorting things out and getting to the point where I can reconcile my calling as bishop, what I believe about the church and being true to myself and my evolving beliefs.

I have come to see the people in my ward on a quadrant axis of orthodoxy and orthopraxy. Every person in my ward is unique and has their own position on these quadrants. And it is never static. What I found that works for me right now is to try to be filled with the pure love of Christ. I think that is safe territory for me and them. God is love as the Epistle of John says. So I try to have that as much as I can.

As far as how they would react if they truly knew what I was going through–I have no idea. I’m sure we would all be shocked to learn what goes on in the hearts and minds of the people we come in contact with. I would hope if they knew what I was going through they would be compassionate and see that I am trying to do the best I can. With God’s help, I have started to find some reconciliation with my level of orthodoxy and orthopraxy. I’m starting to see a bigger picture. I have thought about stepping down but I think that would cause more harm than good. Many on these boards believe that I can do some good because I know what it is like to be very orthodox and I know what it is like to drift to a degree. Therefore I can have an easier time being filled with compassion and love for every member of my ward no matter where they are at in their unique journey.

I have not abandoned everything. It is not black and white. I do find myself being more centered on Jesus Christ and his teachings. I feel very comfortable with that and as you know there is sufficent overlap in our church to make that a good fit. The words of the Apostles and Prophets have not been discarded for me either. Some of the words make me cringe because I believe they are very neo-old testament. Other words of the Brethren I find to be an excellent fit and very Christ centered. For example, Pres. Uchtdorf”s talk called His Hands was very Christlike and I refer to it a lot.

I have had to find ways to reconcile what it means to sustain the Brethren. Ironically, my studies of the scriptures and church history have helped with this. I know for a fact that it is not uncommon for there to be disagreements and differences of opinion between the brethren. Yet they still love and sustain one another. This is where I am at as well. I know they love me and care about me. I have felt the Spirit many times when many of them have spoken. I would give my life for them because I consider them to be “my friends”. Yet, I do have differences of opinion. I’m not vocal or angry about it. I don’t believe every word that comes out of their mouths is doctrine anymore. Our history clearly shows that Apostles and Prophets are imperfect and fallible. The scriptures are clear on this as well.

Tell your wife that it’s complicated. I have shed many tears. All I can say is that I care about my ward, the brethren, and the church very deeply. But there are times when I get frustrated and upset as well. God and my wife and these boards are my only solace. But it is my responsibility to not offend these little ones and I will do all I can to be a blessing and love those little ones as Christ did and does.

Tough questions. But good questions.

[stealthbishop]

Thanks everyone. It’s really good to be here.

[Author]

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