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There has been a lot of focus recently on Priesthood, but also ancillary topics that seem like a response to what is going on such as Obedience and the necessity of Ordinances. Our 5th Sunday lesson (today) was supposed to be about Social Media but we spent most of the time talking about Ordinances. It was not a very inspiring meeting for someone with my point of view.
And apologies, rant coming:
My biggest issue with the church is the idea that somehow God is a loving God, he is our Eternal Father and yet some infinitesimally super small group of people here on the earth will be saved because they have the Ordinances. And yes we can do work for the dead, but it really does seem like a very inefficient way to go about saving everyone who has ever lived on the earth. And then, people who didn’t have “the Gospel” here on Earth just have to say yes in the next life and they get a free pass for whatever happened on Earth, while those of us who were a part of the LDS Church who didn’t live perfectly to every ordinance will somehow not be eligible for exaltation. I just have a really hard time buying all that. If there is one path to it all, as a father I would give my kids an infinite number of opportunities to get there.
Had posted this on another thread but someone linked to this thread and I think this is a better space to hash out some other thoughts I have about this: My other post:
“I don’t know if this will take the discussion to far from the original topic, but what are folks on this sites views of missionary work after a FC? I have never been very comfortable with missionary work, I worked hard as a missionary, but wasn’t “successful” from a # of baptisms perspective probably due to personality and having no interest in berating someone into becoming a member. I don’t really feel comfortable inviting people to church to have them hear from the majority of members that it is the only true church when I don’t really believe that to be the case.
Our Stake is making a huge push for missionary work (probably similar everywhere else), and I can’t be on board with it. I would feel much more comfortable inviting people if I didn’t feel like they would be pressured into missionary lessons, wouldn’t feel like their faith is lesser, and could grow at their own pace instead of feeling like they have to accept the truth tomorrow.”
Agree with the thoughts on this discussion thread. I really like the pipe-dream that was laid out. That is my pipe dream as well. As I have a stake calling it is harder to ignore.
A couple months ago our SP challenged us (those with the same calling I have) to invite someone to have a discussion with the missionaries in their home. During that time I read the book “Coming Apart” by Charles Murray. It is a fascinating book. And as I was reading it, I read it in the context of missionary work. The gist of his argument is that the elites in society have essentially created enclaves for themselves. The affluent and wealthy interact mostly with themselves. A large portion of them live very conservative values (get married, get educated, don’t have kids out of wedlock, provide for your family) while the other segments of society are not living those values and their is a high economic and social cost involved. The “elites” are pretty happy when you look at the survey data. They are involved in their communities, schools, and churches and are pretty religious.
To tie back to missionary work; most of the baptisms I have seen in our stake are folks from lower socio-economic situations. We have rarely had any baptisms fromhigher socio-economic situations. Now I believe the gospel is for everyone, however, the ward I was assigned to work with had a very hard time balancing the normal business as usual workload with the missionary workload. Every ward council we would spend a significant amount of time trying to figure out how to just get people to church. I just felt it was impossible to actually help the members in the ward. So much time was being allocated elsewhere. If we think about new members from a progression perspective (and if this generalization offends anyone, sorry, not sorry) new members form a lower socio-economic situation are not able to contribute to the ward in a significant way for a while. Elites typically are educated, have some leadership experience, and are able to contribute much more quickly.
And on the other end, to ‘convert’ those from higher on the socio-economic ladder the pipe-dream laid out by new6 really has to be the way since they are typically pretty happy where they are at. So when reporting back to my SP I told him I wasn’t able to invite anyone over, but our family would invite 3 non-member families over for dinner sometime this year and just get to know them. That was the most I felt comfortably committing to. He seemed to be Ok with that. In hearing others report back, it felt like I (one of little faith) was one of the few who had put a lot of thought into the challenge.
Anyway, thoughts are a bit scattered. But in general, not a fan of the current missionary program. I will do things the way I think is best for me and my family. Would LOVE it if they revamped and made missions service missions.
-SunbeltRed
Thanks Nibbler and SD. Going to post on the other thread, as its more related to missionary work. I have some thoughts I want to hash out. I don’t know if this will take the discussion to far from the original topic, but what are folks on this sites views of missionary work after a FC? I have never been very comfortable with missionary work, I worked hard as a missionary, but wasn’t “successful” from a # of baptisms perspective probably due to personality and having no interest in berating someone into becoming a member. I don’t really feel comfortable inviting people to church to have them hear from the majority of members that it is the only true church when I don’t really believe that to be the case. Our Stake is making a huge push for missionary work (probably similar everywhere else), and I can’t be on board with it. I would feel much more comfortable inviting people if I didn’t feel like they would be pressured into missionary lessons, wouldn’t feel like their faith is lesser, and could grow at their own pace instead of feeling like they have to accept the truth tomorrow.
Apologies if their is another thread that has discussed this. Feel free to point me to it.
-SunbeltRed
Ray, Great comments!
So up until a few weeks ago I didn’t feel the freedom to say to myself that the story of Abraham might only be metaphorical. Whenever I heard that we would have to face our own Abrahamic test I would always think “I’m screwed, my faith is not that strong”.
I was kind of asking my question because I started really liking the idea of making a comment at church about maybe Abraham failed the test (as it seems to come up a lot). I think it would be innocuous enough to not take away from anyone else but perhaps cause a bit of a stir. And was trying to think about how to respond to the Orthodox response which would be, why did he get the promise he did.
Appreciate the thoughts.
-SunbeltRed
Sorry, new here and reviewing older threads. I really like the the thought of Abraham failing the test…resonated with me especially in light of my recent viewing of the movie “Noah”.
However, it seems that the Abrahamic Covenant is based on Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son. Any thoughts about how he could have ‘failed’ but still received such a great promise?
It doesn’t specifically say he received the promise because he passed the test, only because he was willing to not hold anything back from the Lord. So perhaps he would have been blessed either way and the lesson for us is that as long as we are doing what we think is best we will be blessed?
-SunbeltRed
I don’t have any good idea about the future of OW. Along with cwald, was never my fight either. My wife, who is a non-literal Mormon, is not a fan of OW and resents much of the agitation they have caused. I tend to think OW will go the way of past Mormon feminist movements, but those movements were before the internet and 24/7 news cycles. Although, people get easily distracted and new stories, especially more localized stories like this one, get drowned out by bigger stories as time goes on.
So in other words, I have no idea
🙂 Thanks everyone! Appreciate the warm invite.
Mike – agreed. It does ebb and flow, sometimes the valleys get a bit lower than usual
🙂 I am still deconstructing and rebuilding. It is interesting to reexamine how I thought about many things before from a very different angle. I have been constantly surprised to come upon a previous belief, turn it about, look at it from a different perspective, and wonder how I could have thought such a thing.Would also be interested to hear some of your thoughts on a few other questions:
1) Any quick advice or best practices for the middle way with small children? We have three kids (6,2,1). I prefer to raise them in the church, I want to give them the best perspective I can, I want to represent church history accurately and softly help them to be their own spiritual guides, but I want to respect their agency and let them come to their own conclusions.
2) And, I do have a stake calling. Not in the Stake Presidency, but I work with them a lot. I think my calling is what caused me to reexamine much of this, wondering if I can represent the SP but also be authentic. I feel like I have been able to reconcile having the calling I have with my new faith paradigm. I am temple worthy, I don’t plan on vocalizing any of the things I share here (although I have been revising messages and talks to sound more literal Mormon, but subtly changed to reflect my views). This may sound strange, but I feel like my calling may give me the opportunity to find and work with those with questions like myself and be able to connect and help them in a way that most active members would not understand or comprehend. I have already been able to help a good friend who shares many of my concerns.
Would love to get your thoughts.
-Sunbelt Red
