[swimordie]

Great comments here. I saw my name used in vain. 😆

In many ways, this type of incident is one of the greatest tests of life: detaching.

Of course, when someone is a newly “attached” member, detaching seems quite counter-intuitive. Many aspects of “conversion” include connections with other people, not just a new connection with “God” or a “higher power”. In essence, we control our view of God and our relationship with Him. We do not, however, control our interactive relationships with others. We try to project an image that we know will be accepted but that acceptance is never guaranteed. And, of course, we expect a certain amount of acceptance, especially by those who proclaim to be “loving” or who present themselves as “friends”, “brothers”, “sisters”.

And, therein lies the rub.

Yes, it seems logical and complimentary to expect this from members of a church, especially one that proclaims “fellowship” as a goal. But, in the course of one’s life, one will be taught by life that these expectations generally end poorly.

And, this is the detachment part. Essentially, detaching from expectations.

We all would feel great if no one ever had any expectations of us. Of course, we end up spending alot of time and energy managing others expectations of us but, in a perfect world, we’d love that people simply not have expectations of us. And we can choose to not have expectations of them. An interesting version of the golden rule. If you don’t want any expectations put on you by others, don’t put any expectations on any one else.

In a practical sense, this mindset is difficult to maintain and takes lots of practice to recognize that all of those gnarly things that others think and say are really about them. It’s not about you. Yes, it was said about you. But what others say about you has nothing to do with you. Really, it’s about them.

It’s tough that this lesson has to come so soon in the process of you and your DW’s new life together but, frankly, we all have to figure this out some day to truly find the peace and joy and happiness that is there for us to partake.

[swimordie]

Well, good luck with this one….. 😯

Having gone through all of the possible iterations of this issue/topic in the last two years, I’m overwhelmed by the sense of how much this issue ISN’T about the church or spirituality or relationship to God, but rather the way that the LDS culture has so deeply defined it’s image to the world using this topic. (in my mind it’s a tie between families are forever and WoW)

So… having said that, logic, history and practical health definitions ultimately don’t matter. It’s a strictly emotional concept at this point for almost all TBM’s and, of course, anyone passing through disaffection. If the end result is to gain a “testimony” about the WoW, then from an emotionally healthy standpoint, one would have to experience this on a practical, personal level, free from the manipulations of guilt, shame, or embarrassment.

I’m not sure how practical what I’m saying would be in a paragraph about the WoW but that’s how I’ve experienced it.

[swimordie]

Wow, I really love what Orson just posted. It’s between you and God, period. That’s the part that is so excruciatingly difficult because our framework of who God is and how He feels about us is just as much a part of the whole paradigm as everything else is.

For me, it was a matter of discovering that God, as I define Him, loves me unconditionally and that, as a good person, I can do nothing to offend Him. Or disappoint Him. He “sent” me here for a reason and, if that includes learning from my mistakes, He certainly can’t be disappointed in me because that’s what I’m here for.

In my mind, it’s not “perfection” in the obedience sense of the word, rather “perfection” in the acceptance sense of the word: accepting oneself, accepting others, and accepting the blessing of life as it is. Because life does seem to be the perfect teacher.

[swimordie]

brynngal wrote:

I think that if religion wasn’t so entangled in my life

I wonder if there’s a way for you to separate your concept of God from your concept of religion.

I’ve definitely felt like you in the past and, for me, I discovered that I needed to form my concept of God based around my concept of myself; instead of the concept of God taught to me my whole life.

My thinking being that if God created me the way I am, and I believe that the good in my is from Him…

[swimordie]

Welcome!! I hope you can gain a sense of community with us here!

[swimordie]

Welcome, pearl!!

You have definitely found a great place. Your experience and place in life is soooooo familiar around here. You are definitely amongst fellow travelers.

There’s tons of threads on this forum discussing what you’re going through as well.

[swimordie]

Old-Timer wrote:

In conclusion, I believe that if we are to internalize charity fully, at some point we must be willing to step out of our comfort zones and interact directly, in some way, with those who fight us, curse us, despitefully use us and persecute us. We can’t become truly charitable in isolation, and we can’t become truly charitable through only an intellectual understanding of it.

This is particularly timely for me. As I mentioned in another post last week, I, too, like Ray, had a blow up situation but with my in-laws, though I didn’t react. I disengaged and am now facing the exact point of this thread: interacting directly and charitably with those who hate me and despise me. That’s hard for me to write and even harder to internalize as I’ve spent so much of my adult life earnestly seeking to love and be loved by all those who know me. Obviously, I’ve taken a break from any contact with them for a time but fully recognize that this interaction is in my undefined future. And, I hope to be able to approach it with charity.

This is the ultimate test of charity and, frankly, the ultimate test of emotional health. In the TBM world, family becomes such an integral part of faith, belief, image, worthiness, worth, etc. that there seems to be nothing as powerful. Knowing this, I feel that I can approach the situation with a level of empathy and understanding that must preclude charity. Unfortunately, I’m not going to be pursuing this for some time so I won’t have any immediate insight about the process but I’ll try to check in as it begins to unfold.

Thanks again Ray for these insights. They’re greatly appreciated and meaningful at so many levels.

[swimordie]

Tangentially, this reminds me of the promise given to mothers who lose children that they will get the opportunity to “raise” them in heaven. I have no idea how that could even be possible based on a myriad other doctrinal issues.

fwiw, I have no idea… (frankly, I can’t imagine anyone can logically get through some of these paradoxical conundrums). I think it’s all a part of the touchy-feely families are forever modern mormonism. Essentially, it will all be worked out in the next life exactly how we want it to or in whatever manner makes us happy now. Which I actually think is great! Despite the cynicism… 😳

[swimordie]

I agree with Ray. I don’t think the concept of God as mortal man on some other planet (or this one) has been taught or even mentioned in my adult life. I will say though that the issue of pre-mortal gender muddies the water a bit and that was a consistent theme of GBH’s ministry. By assigning gender to pre-mortal beings, you are implicitly assuming a gender-based mortal existence for God.

I know that may sound like a stretch to some but, in my mind, there’s no other way to get from point A (God has a gender) to point B (God is creating pre-mortal beings with assigned genders). The concept being that gender is a pre-mortal condition therefore if God has a gender, it must have been assigned to Him in a pre-mortal condition thus He must have been in a mortal condition subsequently. With this concept as the basis, GBH’s answer was, in fact, a dodge, imho. Or, yet another unintended consequence of the irrational concept of gender being an eternal foundational condition.

[swimordie]

I’ll chime in here because I just had a HUGE encounter with the stranglehold that the WoW image has on the church culture. It honestly feels like it is THE defining characteristic of being Mormon to the culture. I apologize for the hyperbole because this experience is so fresh but… that’s honestly how it feels.

I mean, when GBH said everyone should stop gambling, including march madness pools, that lasted what… 15 minutes??

Sorry, I feel an unhealthy rant coming on so I’m going to stop. Suffice to say that I feel the culture has defined it’s image to the world around this one single topic. Period.

So, I must respectfully disagree with the previous posters that insinuated that the church may be on the verge of shifting on this… well, not imho.

[swimordie]

What Ray said is right, imo.

However, the civil union route for all couples, gay or straight, is the ultimate path of least resistance in the future so I agree that the church will eventually have to change the policy to match the policies it currently has in other countries where couples must get married civilly first.

[swimordie]

Old-Timer wrote:

but they know I still am active and dedicated and faithful as a member – and I think it helps them to know that.

This caught my attention, Ray. Can you expand on why you think that this knowledge helps your kids?

[swimordie]

Rix wrote:

I think “life” is an illusion. We create our own reality. My reality is not yours, and vice versa.

Orson wrote:

Everything about the gospel applies to the spiritual, the associated physical realities don’t concern me.

These two quotes define my current state of “being”. (btw, loved that rix put quotes on life instead of illusion.)

My spiritual life is an illusion created by me to represent transcendental ideas about the “reality” I have created for myself.

btw, this is what everyone does, they just won’t/don’t/can’t admit it…

[swimordie]

Yeah, I think in many ways it’s difficult to define or delineate what constitutes porn because of the overblown sexual repression. I don’t mean to be graphic but based on the For the Strength of Youth handbook, basically the goal that every young man should have is to never get an erection, and for every young woman, to never cause one. With this as the standard, it’s impossible to approach the issue with any rationality, hence the wildly divergent thoughts.

The ultimate dilemma, for any religion, is how do you set physical guidelines while maintaining a semblance of control?

It’s an interesting dilemma because it also speaks to the dilemma mentioned elsewhere: one group of people yearns for rules to follow and the other group yearns for feelings to follow.

[swimordie]

I know Ray was shying away from relativism but I’d like to embrace it… 😳

Religion, belief, myth, faith, spirituality are all so personal, I’d think that there should be a letter for every person in the world. Having said that, I sense that once a person has traveled through the stages of faith, A and E, the two extremes, actually start feeling like they are the same thing…

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