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Old-Timer wrote:
Seriously, as much as it seems otherwise at times, comprehensive Mormonism is WAY less fear-based when it comes to eternity than pretty much any other Christian sect.I guess we’ve had very different experiences, Ray. Fear was, by far, the most used motivator by my TBM parents and most of my church leaders, teachers, etc. my whole life till my mission. My MP was fantastic. Never used fear, only love. Always. As an adult, I used to think that mainstream Christian churches were so “soft”, it was all about grace and Christ’s love and everyone’s going to be saved, etc. My son’s have gone to “Bible camp” at a local church the last few summers and this was reinforced. NO talk about hell, or the devil, or any of that.
And since I’ve resigned, fear is the ONLY tactic my in-laws use on my DW. I guess, like jmb, I’ve surrounded myself with this framework. Probably because of fear in my previous life. I went to Stake conf. last sunday and the topic of all the talks was joy in the journey. Although there were some good moments (especially the SP at the end) almost all of the talks were centered on obedience. Obedience is the only way for joy to be possible in the journey. Lots of talk about how horrible the world has become, how the end is surely near, etc., etc. But if you’re obedient, you need not fear. Really???? Really??? Obviously, no one’s perfect so what you’re really trying to say is, “RUN FOR THE HILLS, WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE SINNERS”.
Sorry about the hyperbole, I’d love to agree with you, Ray, but my experience has been different. (And limited, admittedly
Great thought, Ray. In response to jmb’s question (even though he didn’t ask me), I think God’s love and patience is infinite. He would never “yell” at us, or even have anger with us. He sent us here (we are here) to learn. Just as our children learn, make mistakes, don’t listen, deal with the consequences, etc. God just has the wisdom to let us do this on our own so we can internalize and maximize the learning experience.
Obviously, part of this learning curve is being a parent and children need adult supervision/parenting so that is part of the process for those who choose to be parents and works great for children because they need parents.
Sounds super simplified. Maybe that’s okay.
🙄 just me wrote:When someone critisizes my journey (or someone on a similar path) I get defensive. I want to be right. I need to learn to honor what is right for others even if they don’t honor what is right for me.
This is SOOOOO me!! On top of all the excellent advice others have given, I’ll add one that’s helped me a ton. The book “Codependent No More” by Melody Beattie. Not sure if it’s been talked about in other threads or forums but it is the book that has helped me “detach” and love myself more than any other book. It’s fantastic.
Probably the most practical self-help style book imaginable because every individual needs to learn to love themselves beyond all the stuff that gets piled on us before we can “help’ ourselves. I re-read chapters of it all the time, very similarly to how I used to read the scriptures. (I’m not going to make a disparaging remark about the scriptures here
😈 )Probably goes without saying, but I agree with hawkgrrl 100%. Especially the end about fear-mongering. In an effort to continue to threadjack this into oblivion, I have a thought on fear-mongering that’s been bothering me for a bit. The apocalypse, second-coming, end-of-days, etc. fear has driven almost all Western religion since…. forever? It hasn’t happened. IMHO, it’s not going to happen, and even if it were, why choose fear? I’m now gonna rant: fear is the most emotionally abusive manipulation that can be used to control another human being. Parents use it constantly, educators use it in school, at recess, employers use it on employees, politicians use it, etc. It’s the easiest, basest form of abuse, used to manipulate and control. How did this method of abuse and control become such an important part of religion and spirituality. It goes against everything that I choose to assign as Christ’s teachings. I know, “God works through man, man uses fear to motivate….” But, really?? Aren’t we all grown up enough to recognize the fear-mongering?
I know there’s a snappy quote that one of you has on hand, but in my mind, fear is the antithesis of love. Can the two go together? Everyone on this forum is so thoughtful, I can’t wait to hear everyone’s response. (if you want to
End rant.
Old-Timer wrote:It’s SO refreshing to read things like that – when the internet can be such a depressing place at times.
Have I said I really love this site?
Amen, Ray. You must have been cruising the same forums as me the last couple days. I literally had to stop checking, I was so down/depressed. I guess it’s just the tone of the posts or something.
Thank you to everyone here for being the calm in the storm.
Heber, sorry to be cheesy, but that really touched me. The whole thing. Very honest, sincere and healthy. Ahh, life… what would you do without it? (Rhetorical) Thanks, Ray for your version. Very instructive, as were everyone’s comments (This forum is Awesome! The one thing that I think is lost in comparing TR interviews is that you are dealing with 11-12 year olds. They don’t have the life skills to handle this alone, and frankly, shouldn’t have to in the first place, imho. Yes, 12 year olds can sin, but do they have any understanding of the complexity of that sin and its consequences. It’s so subjective and dangerous, even trained professionals are scared of this prospect. What of the 28 year old Mormon bishop with no post-secondary education and a black and white view of the world.
I know that’s an extreme example, but I use it to illustrate the complexity and sensitivity of the issue.
Old-Timer wrote:I’ve said elsewhere that if there is ONE group of people who simply CAN’T be expected to trust that government will NOT try to force its view of marriage on them,
You could end this sentence with the LGBT community instead of the Mormon community. I urge anyone who is interested to study the history and eventual Supreme Court ruling on miscegenation.(Loving v. State of Virginia) All current debates on the SSM issue are almost exactly what they were 45 years ago in the debate over miscegenation. And, of course, the church didn’t change it’s stance on miscegenation till the 1978 priesthood decision and still discouraged vigorously interracial marriage after that.
Obviously, the church and its leaders have every right to advocate for any policy they want. (Though I personally think that this is against the spirit of the constitution if not the letter)
Heber, if the definition of “marriage” is what’s at stake there is another way: make all couples (gay or straight) get a civil union license for legal purposes and then allow for “marriage” to be a religious ceremony. Take government out of the equation completely (which is probably appropriate anyways)
Why hasn’t the church advocated for this position instead, which is the law in a variety of countries?
Heber13 wrote:
did anyone from your hometown commit gruesome murders in the name of God?Am I to fear you may be that kind of person too? I mean, you did grow up in that environment which seems to teach people those things.
I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic, funny, or mocking. I’ll take each individually.
Sarcastic: You should fear me if you will cause a nation to dwindle in unbelief.
Funny: Whiskey Tango is always capable of anything. Don’t test this theory.
Mocking: I’m not making excuses for the Lafferty’s or making generalizations that you must be this way if you grew up where I did. If your personality type is such that you view the world as black and white, then you are susceptible to dangerous thinking that could lead to dangerous actions. (recent abortion doctor killer comes to mind, or holocaust museum shooter, whiskey tango both)
Finally, you can take the boy out of the trailer park, but you can’t take the trailer park out of the boy.
Great thoughts Heber, just me- This topic is actually exactly where I am in my journey with one small tweak. I feel that by loving myself, I love God. My perception/consciousness is all that I have(God) and by loving myself and the good that is in me, I am loving God. Recognizing that in myself, I also recognize God in all of my fellow human beings and feel that if I love myself(God) unconditionally, I can and feel compelled to love everyone else unconditionally. It’s the unconditionally part that’s the trick, imho.
Thanks Heber, I think that is what I hope to do/be. btw, it’s on. We will all be together in one week, though the occasion has nothing to do with me/my “struggle”. (I love the way I get framed by my TBM in-laws)
My DW and I are still undecided whether to broach the subject but when she told me last night on the phone that we would be together with them, I had a physical reaction of dread. You know, that numb feeling when it seems blood is leaving your body. Weird, cause I thought I was past that. Why I thought that, I have no idea. Possibly because I’ve come so far with my own parents, talking it out, expressing things, etc. and I haven’t had that chance with my in-laws.
Why do I feel like the bad guy when I know in my heart I’m one of the good guys?
Heber13 wrote:My point is that sometimes it seems mormons are expected to be held to a higher standard, and I wonder why, unless that is an admission from all their critics that they really do have the truth, so they should be better people than they are.
There is something about hypocrisy that gets humans really riled up and makes them irrational. I imagine that was your reaction to your BIL’s reaction which was the same: he felt hypocrisy (maybe people came up to him and said hi when he was at church but what about all the times no one reached out to him when he wasn’t at church, just a hypothesis)
My point is that Mormons are held to a higher standard because they judge the world from a higher standard. People are going to naturally sense the hypocrisy and react. If mormons adopted the “live and let live” standard, they would be held to that instead. But proselyting, Prop 8, Utah’s GOP stranglehold, etc. projects the image of “we know better than you” and thus the higher standard/hypocrisy cycle begins.
Bruce in Montana wrote:Is there some record of bishops expounding on this and messing kids up for life that I’m not aware of? Please direct me to that source.
I’m sure others can give their experience. I don’t know of examples posted online but I’m sure if you checked out some post or ex-mo sites you would get alot.
My personal experience: As a teenager, when I was asked the yes/no question I said “no” and was then probed for many details: above the waist/below the waist, etc.etc.
My sister had a horrifying experience (prompted by my parents) before she was even a teenager and she is still in therapy dealing with the ramifications. (she’s now in her 30’s) I know she wasn’t just asked a yes/no question.
Sorry for the emotional response but this one is extremely personal. Sexual shaming has had devastating effects on myself and my siblings in adulthood. In fairness, it was much more parents than bishops (though Dad was the bishop through alot of it)
Old-Timer wrote:For further clarification, please read the following link from my personal blog:
“Judge Righteous Judgment” (
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009 … gment.html)Beautiful post, Ray! I think a thread on this topic would be great. I know it would help me
Old-Timer wrote:It is wrong from a legal standpoint (since you would have no legal standing whatsoever); it is wrong from an interpersonal standpoint, since it is aggressively confrontational and threatening; it is wrong from a “godly” standpoint, since it is the opposite of humble and meek.
I totally understand each of these points but feel like there’s the bigger issue: what if the bishop says something inappropriate? As a parent, you knew the possibility but you didn’t say anything? Once the damage is done, it’s done. Especially at such a young age. Some things you never get back. And there is no amount of damage control that can be done after the fact.
So, if the confrontation isn’t a good idea, what is?
Also, why wouldn’t you have a legal option? Most states have unbelievably strict laws about speaking to/being with a minor in private (my DW is a 2nd grade teacher and can’t initiate a hug with her students)
