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musicman- From my humble perspective, your approach is perfect. In fact, it should be the policy of the church, yesterday.
mormonheretic wrote:I don’t see any good answers here.
That’s true of all of these types of issues: how do we save people from themselves? (abortion, trans fat, tobacco, etc.)
There is a strong argument to make that maximizing individual liberty while maximizing personal responsibility is the best system that humans have come up with. It’s definitely what the founders had in mind.
An example from the opposite side of this: drunk drivers get unusually light sentences relative to the seriousness of their crime (and its potential damage).
Understood. That will be the most difficult part for me, by far. Being a person who always feels the need to “prove” stuff, I’ll be doing brain flips till my head explodes. If I’m lucky.
Which brings up another thought: My dad is orthodox TBM and he “knows” everything. (I’m sure this is where I get it) Are there other thought processes that have worked for all of you that are both intellectually honest and conformist without being confrontational? Stages of faith comes to mind but I’m thinking more along the lines of what a TBM would accept and/or embrace. I guess what I’m trying to say is where is some middle ground we can work from that will satisfy all parties? Is that possible? (I’m not saying that I will try it but, it’d be nice to build a mental framework that is totally non-confrontational for both sides, however naive that is)
jmb275 wrote:The stage 3 symptoms you exhibit are not based on your opinions, but rather on your certainty and “black and white” disposition toward the issue. It is fine to not agree with the church, Mormons, or other religious folk. But once we cross the line into certitude we begin passing judgment, have closed our mind to others’ point of view, and are no better than those with whom we clash
Thank you jmb for nailing me on the head. I guess a question is: “When does a “knowledge” of something become an “activist” urge? And what to do with it?
John Dehlin mentions the moral obligation of staying a member of the church to influence positively the destructive nature of some of the culture, history, etc. towards people’s faith.
Is it possible? The church didn’t change it’s stance on polygamy and priesthood for all men until there was massive external pressure. These were not changed from the inside (from my perspective).
Is it appropriate? Should the brethren tweak doctrine, practices due to internal pressure? Has it happened? Maybe the non-questioning of oral s3x in temple recommend interviews.
Thoughts?
Lizarian wrote:My wife doesn’t think it’s a big deal for someone other than a mom or dad, or not a trained mental health professional to talk about this stuff in private with a child. She also first heard the term from her Bishop. It’s even worse in my opinion to think of a 50 YO asking a 12-13 YO Girl.
I don’t want to sound judgmental but it’s pretty accepted in the child development field that only parents and medical professionals should be speaking in private with anyone under the age of 16 about sexuality issues. This is actually more to protect the adult from false accusation. There are laws protecting certain practices for clergy with parishioners, etc. and I know growing up in the church I was asked about masturbation as a teenager. Handing your child over to an ecclesiastical leader to deal with such sensitive subject-matter is border-line abuse, IMHO.
My sister had a horrific incident with this and she had a lifetime of shame and guilt until finally leaving the church last year in her early 30’s. So my ideas on this are a little charged emotionally.
Bishops, etc. are not trained professionals which maybe doesn’t matter 90% of the time but there is that 10% of the time when a child has discovered masturbation or recognizes SSA and it is in these cases where it is appropriate for a parent to seek professional guidance in addressing the topic with the child. Using shame or guilt around the topic of sexuality is one of the most damaging things a parent can do to a child, similar to emotional and physical abuse in long term damage.
I was one of five siblings, raised uber-orthodox mormon and I can attest to the similarity of the damage of emotional abuse, physical abuse, and sexual shaming.
Sorry for the protracted, emotional response. My immediate family is dealing with the effects of this exact topic, so far three of the five of us have resigned from the church either directly or indirectly as a result of this. All in the last 18 months and we’re all in our 30’s.
Thanks Ray. That is a beautiful thought and very prescient about my relationship with my wife. hawkgrrrl wrote:1 – Don’t get hooked. It sounds like you are both doing well at this so far.
hawk, I love your #2 and 3 but I’m not sure what you meant on this one. Explain?
pinkpatent wrote:Tell them that this is between you and the Lord. Tell them that the closest thing to godliness you have found on this earth is the love of your DW.
That is an absolutely beautiful sentiment. Thank you.
And thank you all for your comments. This has been an incredibly important thread for me and ALL of your insight is impactful and meaningful. Every post has given me insight and moments of clarity and epiphanies. Thank you all again, and keep it coming. I know I can’t be too prepared for this.
LaLaLove wrote:You mentioned your “Entire Life” – This life is important too.
I couldn’t agree more. The experiences in this life are so important, all of them, good and bad. Today is the most important day in eternity, and it will be the only chance we get to experience it in eternity. No matter how long eternity is/was/will be, we’ll never get today back.
Some of us haven’t heard your story so if you want to share more….
JustMike wrote:Why should I trust my own ‘burning in the bosom’ experiences that tell me the LDS church is good/true, if other people have similar experiences that tell them something different or completely opposite?
That’s what I got out of the book, anyway. Did anyone else have any similar response?
I did have a very similar response to the book,which I read very recently (I checked it out from the library and it’s still not due back)
I grew up in a small “Mormon settlement” town and the line between the mainstream church and fundamentalists was very, very thin. Even in the 1980’s. There was regularly little groups that cropped up based on various “movements”: anti-government groups (stopped paying taxes, took names off social security), self-sustaining groups (getting off “the grid”, ten-year supplies, home schooling) and, yes, polygamist groups. So, the world of the Lafferty’s did exist and, at least in small towns, was fairly prominent. All these people felt like they were being led by the Spirit in making these decisions. They were mostly very active TBM’s. I have no idea what to say about that except, like you, we all have our journey and you try to do your best with the light that God has given each of us.
I’ll be the lone defender of Krakauer. I totally agree with Ray that he had a thesis and went about trying to prove it. That is what most “investigative journalists” do and I’m not sure he was successful but, on it’s face, it is a compelling thesis. There is alot of Old Testament-style writings in the early church, especially D&C (eg. end of Sec. 132 if you don’t obey God’s plan for polygamy) and B.Y. Of course, the most damning evidence that I’m sure justified the Lafferty’s to themselves was the Laban story. Like Heber said, this is a very narrow view of the Mormon experience which makes it feel very unfair but Krakauer was trying to prove his thesis so…. And, if you live in the right place at the right time, it might not feel so narrow. (my hometown)
Lastly, “Into the Wild” is by far the best book, movie, soundtrack combination in the history of media.
😆 Krakauer, Penn, Vedder.😈 😈 😈 (DO NOT mention this in EQ)I’m assuming you’re talking about yourself, Ray? Because I’m not talking to any church leaders. (Though my bishop was completely understanding and supportive and he actually turned me on to the ecclesiastical brochure on talking to victims of abuse, in my case, emotional abuse) You’re absolutely right, MH. I’m not unaware of the moments of stress this causes her and I try to be as supportive as possible. The monumental change that has brought us closer as a couple dwarfs those stressful moments, but they are there. Today, I actually brought up the prospect of my talking to her family. She is not against it but she wants to know of their openness to the prospect first.
Alexia wrote:All the while knowing my responsibility (lack of better word) in this.
This comment is an echo of something I hear the brethren say sometimes: that we must live our lives in such a way as to be deserving of God’s love.
I humbly reject this concept. Our existence and the goodness in each of us is all that God “needs” to love us. He loves us unconditionally. That means (imho) that we don’t need to “earn” His love, and He won’t be disappointed by anything we do. He sent us here to learn. If we did everything perfect, what could we possibly learn? And, even if we make the same mistake over and over, He still loves us equally and unconditionally because He recognizes that we have more to learn.
This is going to sound weird but it’s a thought I’ve had since someone very close to me is going through an extremely rough patch in his life. I sometimes envy him because I may live my whole life without having the chance to experience what he is experiencing. I know that if I was in his situation, I would probably feel differently but he’s learning and experiencing things that I will never get to. I’m okay with that because we all have our own unique journey and we all have different things we need to learn and experience but it doesn’t mean I’m not a little jealous in a weird way.
For me, I sit quietly in my back yard at night, enjoying the moonlight. I speak out loud to myself. “I am a good person”. “I am a good father”. “I am a good husband”. “God loves me no matter what”.
I’ve had some intensely quiet, peaceful moments.
You are a good person. God knows that and loves you unconditionally for it.
Wow, I’m so appreciative of all of your thoughtful comments! Thank you! There’s a pretty good chance we’re all going to be together in a couple weeks so, based on what happens between now and then, I may have a talk with them all. The short time I’ve been following this forum, I’ve felt myself get in a better place around being calm in the face of disagreement and more objective about the importance of personal journey/where we all are (thanks Ray
Also, a few of your comments made it seem like there might be tension in my marriage over this. In fact, the opposite is true. My DW went through the process of de-coupling from her parents to choose me. Yes, she is the most amazing person in the world. Our marriage actually went to a level of intimacy that I never thought imaginable. More honesty, keener consciousness, unconditional love and acceptance, etc. We truly are one in Christ because, as I stated before, we’re at His absolute mercy. (Very peaceful, joyous place, btw)
Thank you again to all.
I’m open to more comments too if anyone has been through a similar situation or know someone who has.
Thank you all for your thoughtful words. LaLaLove wrote:I would say if you ever get a chance to be around them .. Let them know that you will answer their questions .. That you are an adult and they are adults – No need to USE your wife!
This is exactly my dilemma (not my wife’s as stated above). They literally never mention anything or even allude to anything when I’m around. They just pretend like everything’s okay, which has made it quite easy for me. But my DW bears the entire brute force of their lashing out. I don’t know if it’s my place to start that conversation and I fear it could make it even worse for my wife, if that’s possible. I had that conversation with my parents and it went well, mostly because I just stayed calm and focused on my love and appreciation for them and for Christ’s example/sacrifice/mercy (which at this point is what I’ve put all my chips on)
Funny side story: I told my parents at the end of Sunday dinner and I saw my dad clear the table and do the dishes for the first time in my life.
mormonheretic wrote:
In conclusion, it seems that the potential dangers presented by the medical use of marijuana may actually contribute to the dangers of the diseases which it would be used to combat.
Look at me, I’m an armchair medical scientist now!!
😆 I don’t know anything about medicine or medical journals but that statement is false. Marijuana therapy is NOT used to “combat” diseases. It is used for pain management, appetite enhancer, etc. I don’t doubt the research done about the immune system vulnerabilities but that last statement makes the study come under question due to preset bias…. or something
btw, MH didn’t say that, the study he put in his post did.
