[Syme]

Wow, the first time you posted this I thought it would just be a typo….

Not only is it not fair to you, but it’s also not fair to any of these people who you home teach. It’s hypocritical to claim that hometeaching is about fellowship while spreading the effort so thin. Nobody can put forth the emotional effort to connect with 18 people, and people know when they’re just a checkbox.

It’s cliche, but it helps to hear it again: you can’t take care of others until you take care of yourself.

[Syme]

Reuben wrote:

Syme wrote:

I don’t know if God exists or not, but if he does, it seems like the LDS adage is false. It just doesn’t fit in the LDS view of things. God is more like a candy machine. Insert a quarter, get a jolly rancher. Insert prayer/scripture study/church, get a testimony. It’s as if God’s will is not part of the equation, at least when we teach about it.

This reminds me strongly of something I wrote here recently about the formulas we’re taught. The short version: the candy machines/formulas aren’t reliable, and chucking them was overall a good thing for me. I don’t feel like I know what life is all about anymore and living it now feels a bit like tightrope walking without a net. (Metaphors galore today!) But I own my moral compass, and I don’t have to shake the candy machine or try to explain to myself and others why it so often doesn’t put out.

I think the Church attracts and retains people the same way as self-help programs and political parties: by selling certainty. (I can’t take credit for this idea – I got it from this video featuring Brené Brown. The certainty bit starts at 7:40, but the whole video is worth watching.) It’s not like the Church is twirling its evil moustache or swimming in a vault full of gold coins, though. It’s just good old human weakness, and the fact that selection bias gives the appearance of certainty.

Suppose I teach the formula “if you roll a die correctly, then you’ll get a 6.” When people don’t roll a 6, I tell them they’ve done it incorrectly and that they have to try again. Some get a 6 immediately. Some take a long time. Some even learn techniques to almost always get 6.

What happens to the people who walk up with a four-sided die? Some will keep quiet about their failure to roll a 6 and try to blend in. Some will pretend to roll a 6. Some will add the other numbers they’ve gotten together to get 6. Some will withdraw.

The only testimonies about my formula we would hear would be from those who rolled a 6 and those who still hoped to roll a 6. They would self-select to testify, and that’s selection bias.

If I sent missionaries out, their message would be simple and certain: “Join us and you’ll roll a 6! That’s how it worked for me and everyone I know!”

Syme wrote:

Both options seem really problematic. Right now, I just plan to live without God. If he reaches out, then great, but he hasn’t given me a reason to stick around.

That’s really not a bad plan.

Here’s a question a good friend asked me lately: What do you believe in strongly enough to devote your life to? My answer is “love and truth.” What’s yours?

EDIT: Aww, ninja’d by Minyan Man on the introspective questions.

Selection bias… never thought of it like that.

And I’ve read your post on formulas before. That was one of the best posts on a message board that I have read.

To answer both yours and Minyan Man’s questions, things I care about:

* Truth

* Justice

* Freedom

* Self-Improvement

* Exploration

Out of these things, I could devote my life to self-improvement and truth. I like the idea of justice, but I am perfectly content to withdraw from society to search for the truth / improvement.

[Syme]

DarkJedi wrote:

I stumbled across this while searching for something else Bednar said, but it is related to this post because of the reference to Bednar’s 2006 talk.

http://religionnews.com/2017/01/27/do-mormons-leave-the-church-because-they-got-offended/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://religionnews.com/2017/01/27/do-mormons-leave-the-church-because-they-got-offended/

Quote:

Do these people leave primarily because they’re upset by historical inconsistencies or problems, like Joseph Smith’s practice of polygamy or questions about seer stones? I’ve heard this explanation from many people, especially those on the left who see the Church’s fluctuating approach to those complex issues as a sign of deception.

Or do they leave because they got “offended” by something someone said at church? This is the narrative Elder David A. Bednar focused on in General Conference a decade ago, and it’s been a prominent feature of LDS internal discourse ever since. I hear variations on it often, usually from current members who are explaining why people they know left the Church.

Well, guess what? Statistically, there is some merit in both explanations.

We surveyed 541 former Mormons (in addition to more than 1100 current Mormons who did not, obviously, receive this question). We asked them to name their top three reasons for leaving the Church, choosing from nearly 30 options that were broken down into two main categories:

-Doctrinal/institutional reasons (concerns about the Book of Abraham, say, or the lack of financial transparency about what happens with tithing money) and

-Personal/social reasons (like being excluded, not feeling able to trust the leadership, or losing a testimony of the “one true church”)

Overall, personal and social reasons dominated the list rather than specific doctrinal or historical problems people had.

Decent article. The comments are very much worth the read as well, especially the personal stories.

I’m tempted to share with my SP, but I probably won’t.

I started doubting because of a lack of authentic spiritual experiences. Before that I swallowed doctrinal/social problems on faith. I think a doubt in one part of the church is like a crack in the levee. Once something bothers you that can’t be resolved, you start noticing other things. I can’t be the only one.

Side note, how much do you want to bet no one prayed about the veracity of this “revelatory” program?

[Syme]

SunbeltRed wrote:

Hi Syme –

I don’t visit or post in here often anymore, but your story struck a chord with me.

When I was newly married I was in a spot where I needed some comfort about my place in the universe. I prayed, much like you, harder and more openly than I ever had…and silence. It scared me, seriously freaked me out.

10 years later, I consider myself agnostic, I don’t really worry about whether there is a God or not. I figure if there is one, he loves us and will do right in the end, if there isn’t, well then when I’m dead it won’t matter anymore. Not exactly the most comforting thought probably, but my larger point is, right now the questions are consuming you, but it gets better. The existential angst may not leave entirely, but you will figure out a way to deal with it, make sense of it, work with it, and forge a new path forward.

That path may be in mormonism, it may not (mine is currently a path of disengagement), but either way, you will get to own it. Hang on until you graduate, and then if you feel you need to, take a sabbatical, explore some different religions, see how feel, reevaluate, and then move forward from there.

Best of luck,

SBRed

Thank you for the answer. It looks like you know what existential pain is. So many other people don’t know what I’m talking about because either they believe in an afterlife or don’t care much about the meaning of life. But I’m glad to hear it gets better.

Monkeymom wrote:

This is my first time posting so if totally inappropriate I apologize. But if I may offer a different approach. I’m heterosexual so I’m not going to pretend to understand but I do know a few things that have changed my life dramatically when it comes to God and life’s experiences.

1- start looking at God from a different perspective, not just the LDS perspective.

2- look into eastern practices and perspectives of the universe. This helped form my opinion on God in unquic ways.

3-Emanuel Swedenborg- his writings or you tube videos “off the left eye” channel. His ideas on God, heaven, reason for life, reason for trials…wow his stuff made a ton more sense. I still don’t agree with all of it and he might be crazy. But I still appreciate the change of perspective.

4- Gregg Braden has some books and ideas that have really helped my idea of who God is and why we experience what we do. Very interesting.

Maybe a crisis of faith means a new perspective is needed. Hopefully you’ll find some helpful resources. At any rate I have nothing but serious respect for you and your journey.

Not inappropriate at all. Thank you.

[Syme]

Reuben wrote:

Welcome! It sounds like you’re in the right place. I’m also here partly because other organized communities seem too bitter and angry. I can’t let it eat me up like that.

I’ve been here. I’m still here.

I have no idea whether this will help, but I’ve been wondering this lately: if I no longer accept feelings as evidence, what do I accept?

Thanks, Reuben.

My only evidence I would accept would be feeling the spirit (if it was unmistakable), and miracles. There are too many coincidences in my opinion.

Reuben wrote:

A universe without God is definitely a scarier place.

Here’s something I didn’t expect: it wasn’t so much the idea of there being nothing after death that scared me (whatever happens, it’ll be just like before I was born – no big), but the idea of being forgotten.

Another thing I didn’t expect was a more intense desire to do something about others’ pain. I can’t anymore just hand it off to God and expect him to make everything all better. Maybe I needed this for my personal growth.

Again, no idea whether any of this is helpful, just relating some experience that might intersect with yours.

It was helpful. I don’t experience the fear of being forgotten (maybe I haven’t gotten over total annihilation yet) but I agree that helping make the world a better place is even more important. If we’re right, then it’s the only one we have

ydeve wrote:

Hey, another LGBTQ BYU student! My experience has been rather different than yours. I feel the same attraction to people without regards to their gender, and I’ve found that, for me, they are very much equivalent to what straight people experience. Do be aware that there are heterosexuals who feel dirty and unworthy about their sexual attraction, so that isn’t unique to being LGBT. Culture and our own experiences affect our perceptions of sexual attraction. There is nothing inherently dirty about being attracted to people of the opposite gender.

I think you may have misinterpreted my statement. I don’t say “I believe my attraction is not equal to a heterosexual one” out of shame or self-loathing.

ydeve wrote:

Yes, the church has no helpful resources for LGBTQ members. They mostly reinforce the unhealthy idea that we’re given a terrible “trial” or mentally ill.

Yeah, true. I wouldn’t mind it being a “trial”, as long as they offered some wisdom about what it all means.

DarkJedi wrote:

Welcome to the forum. I approved your post earlier today but didn’t have time to reply then.

My heart goes out to you. While I like BYU and have children who have and are going there, I also recognize how very challenging it can be for someone in your situation. You have not only the SSA to deal with but a faith crisis as well. Fortunately you are close to graduating – hang in there and endure to the end! (until graduation that is)

I don’t know why some of us have challenges that others don’t. I think church policy regarding gays is wrong. I don’t think this is how Christ would treat and act toward those in your situation. Alas, I can’t change any of that, but I will weep with those that weep and mourn with those who mourn. And sometimes I will be like Job’s friends and just sit there.

Thanks Mr. Jedi.

I think that revelation should (in theory) trump everything. But I haven’t heard anyone claim “I have a testimony of the children of gay parents policy”. Most people either are confused, or say they don’t “need” a testimony of it, that they “know” it’s divinely inspired anyway.

DarkJedi wrote:

I have experienced that silence to which you refer. I have experienced it for years and continue to experience it. I know that feeling of really needing God’s presence and getting nothing. It’s heart breaking.

The idea that all ex-Mormons are bitter critics is a fallacy. In my experience most who leave do so quietly, without fanfare, and are never heard from again. They leave the church and they leave the church alone. Some simply stop coming and never come back, some more formally have their names removed. The tiny minority are bitter, loud mouthed antis.

I spent a long time being angry at God. My anger was misdirected and I finally figures that out and shifted my anger toward the church. But that anger was also misdirected. In the end I was angry that people in the church had led me astray by teaching me things that weren’t true, but this was (and to some extent is) actually a collective of people who are not knowingly doing so with malice. You indeed may have more reason to be angry with God – but God didn’t make no junk. I’d advise you to take a look at that idea – maybe you’re not as “broken” as you and others think you are.

Your last sentence resonated with me. I think I’ve been spending too much time wondering why my “God receptors” are broken. But there’s nothing I can do about it, so might as well leave it be.

Quote:

😆 Pascal’s wager – I often think about this myself. I have nothing to lose by choosing to believe in God.

I don’t know why some people get witnesses from God and some don’t. I don’t know why some people experience miracles and some don’t. I one who experiences neither, and apparently so are you. I am sorry. I hope you find the peace you seek.

Praying doesn’t require you to sit for 3 hours in a suit I think I would always keep praying for that reason.

[Author]

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