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So you don’t at all feel like you have hamstrung the church when you cut the need for continual revelation via an interrupted line of priesthood authority? I used to separate the the church from the gospel, but I don’t do so as much now. You don’t gather figs of thistles after all.
I also would say the church can and does have beliefs. They are found in the articles of faith and proclamation, and elsewhere.
Lastly I would say that the gospel in its fullness must be more than the atonement and resurrection because the LDS church is supposed to have the corner on the fullness of the gospel, but almost 1/3 of the world has that.
I am realizing I don’t really belong here. I mean no offense, but it sounds to me like your message is believe what you want and believe that it is what the gospel according to LDS approves of even if the LDS Church doesn’t. I can’t do that. If I believe something else I can’t pretend God agrees with me and just hasn’t told his church about it. If I believe something is true and that he has a true church he will tell them.
I believe that homosexuality is not a sin, and that is a big deal. If I think God is okay with it then either he hasn’t told his church yet (in thousands of years), I am wrong, or they aren’t his church. Maybe I am just not ready to be here, but it seems like I have been telling myself the church vs gospel story for years and I don’t believe it anymore.
I find your concept of debate startling. I debate to determine truth by approaching a concept from every possible angle. A good debate should remove any incorrect facts or assumption leaving only the bare truth, or as near to it as imperfect understanding can get. Still, I see you are right. This is not the way this community seeks truth, instead seeking inspiration and support.
So I am apostate from the church, but I am always trying to be true to my interpretation of the gospel. Sounds like most excommunicated members. I know the church invites people who disagree to attend. The “Smokers Welcome” story comes to mind. As long as I don’t teach my beliefs I won’t be thrown out. I just feel sad that I feel stuck still going. Maybe I have too negative a view for this forum. You guys are awesome, and many of you still believe very strongly, and that is a beautiful thing. i shouldn’t try to blot it out. I think I will hang around for a while and try to be less forceful.
DarkJedi wrote:
I get your frustration, and I understand. I, and others here, have been or are where you are. Ihave reached the conclusion that it’s not black and white at all, it’s all gray. We see through glass darkly. It’s not an if/then proposition. The idea that God gives us specific blessing for specific things was part of my faith crisis. I bear you my witness that it doesn’t really work that way – it rains on the good and the bad, and the sun shines on the good and the bad as well.Though I wholeheartedly agree that it is not black and white we are not talking about what I believe to be true. We are talking about what the church believes, and though it doesn’t come up directly in the temple interview, when they ask if you believe the teachings they are not asking if you believe in the teachings you like. I feel like the church is anti-buffet mormon. I think it is all black and white. No hyperbole. After all, “You cannot approach the gospel as you would a buffet or smorgasbord, choosing here a little and there a little. You must sit down to the whole feast and live the Lord’s loving commandments in their fullness.” It’s Your Choice By Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin 1994. I know he is not infallible, but I won’t accept that the church is only fallible when they disagree with me, and based on the quote he doesn’t want me to either. Going buffet style means I reject the church’s authority to rule in god’s name, placing my own authority above that of the church. If I do that I am in apostasy.
If I were Unitarian I could get away with that, but not so much in the LDS church.
Don’t worry. No one here offends me. I love when people are willing to share their souls with me, even if it disagrees with me. I tend to argue the same way no matter what the topic. I love debate. Always have. My little sister and I used to argue for fun for hours. She is in law school now in Syracuse now.
I have not found this to be a cultural thing. I am pretty good at ignoring that stuff, though we used to refer to those hardliners as Utards when I was growing up. I don’t feel especially condemned by the people of the church, though I do members who are for believing and teaching doctrines like universal Celestial exaltation.
Really it is just the doctrine as
I perceive itthat I have been struggling with. On Own Now wrote:taletotell wrote:I would add that
every timepeople expressed how the road was perfect they also said that anyone who was mugged on it was deficient in some way.
TTT, just trying to comprehend your perspective. I’ve gotten a sense from your posts that you make pretty liberal use of hyperbole, so I can’t tell what the true extreme of your scale is. Does the above statement accurately reflect how you see people in the Church? I ask sincerely to understand, because its very different from how I see people in the Church, and I’m struggling with the idea of why a person who believes that way would not run as far away from the Church as possible. Understanding you, I think, gives me a chance to examine myself and recognize why I have chosen the Way (hi wayfarer) that I follow.
I wouldn’t say I use much hyperbole. There are some things that the church literally says are black and white. Either the BoM is true or the church is false is one example.The metaphor of the road that is not safe but that everyone claims is safe is incomplete without what I added because the teachings say God is bound if you do as he says, and that he says he’ll manifest the truth of it unto you if you ask with real intent. Anyone who believes the above (that god is bound when you do as he says, and that he will manifest the truth if you ask) has to reject the church if they don’t get an affirmative answer on the church. Anyone who did get an affirmative answer has to assume, by the same token because there is no middle ground here, that the person either did not follow the instructions or is otherwise deficient.
I never received an answer in the affirmative. I have literally been told I am doing it wrong many times.
There are no shades of gray here. Either it is real or it is just another church (albeit a good one) and either god is bound or he is not and either the answer is yes or it is not.
That does not mean it is not a good church. That does not mean it does not have a lot of truths.
Sorry if I sound frustrated. I just got off work and I feel like this should be more clear.
Great metaphor. I would add that every time people expressed how the road was perfect they also said that anyone who was mugged on it was deficient in some way. At least I have my wife who is understanding. She gets frustrated with it all too, even though she doesn’t act as though she wants to leave. When a member or even a general authority says something along those lines she holds my hand and gives me an understanding smile. She feels like she got her answers, but believes me when I say I haven’t and doesn’t blame me. It’s nice.
The new commandment is my preference: john 13 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Says what kind of love.
I need to build more of a tolerance. I don’t know why I care so much. Partly because I feel trapped, I think. My wife isn’t as far gone as I am and wants to continue living the culture. He says gospel that’s true. Add in the BOM, D+C, prophets led by God, and the only post apostasy priesthood and you got a church. Can anyone show me any apostle or Prophet saying the church isn’t true? Make no mistake. The LDS church claims to be the only true and living church, having a fullness of the gospel. That isn’t quite infallibility, but they never delineate where cannon starts and human frailty ends until years later. Saying the prophet is wrong, and acting accordingly is apostasy.
