[tblue]

DarkJedi wrote:

tblue wrote:

Ann wrote:

I wonder if his FAIR talk included sentiments that Deseret Book wouldn’t tolerate for “Planted.” That’s their prerogative, but the book doesn’t resonant quite strongly enough with people struggling and leaving. This could be a real turning point.

Deseret Books does carry “Planted’, but I could be misunderstanding your post.

https://deseretbook.com/p/planted-belief-and-belonging-in-an-age-of-doubt?variant_id=126475-paperback” class=”bbcode_url”>https://deseretbook.com/p/planted-belief-and-belonging-in-an-age-of-doubt?variant_id=126475-paperback

I think what Ann is trying to say is that Deseret Book is the publisher of Planted and as such has editorial oversight. Therefore, Mason may not have been able to say the things he said at FAIR in the book because his DB editor wouldn’t allow it.

Thanks, DarkJedi, for correcting my misread of Ann’s post – and for the info in how Deseret ‘oversight’ may affect publications.

[tblue]

Ann wrote:

I wonder if his FAIR talk included sentiments that Deseret Book wouldn’t tolerate for “Planted.” That’s their prerogative, but the book doesn’t resonant quite strongly enough with people struggling and leaving. This could be a real turning point.

Deseret Books does carry “Planted’, but I could be misunderstanding your post.

https://deseretbook.com/p/planted-belief-and-belonging-in-an-age-of-doubt?variant_id=126475-paperback” class=”bbcode_url”>https://deseretbook.com/p/planted-belief-and-belonging-in-an-age-of-doubt?variant_id=126475-paperback

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I missed catching the link to hear the talk by Patrick Mason; however, I found this short article that ‘reports’ on the talk.

http://goo.gl/jD8vjq” class=”bbcode_url”>http://goo.gl/jD8vjq

“Patrick Mason was the first FairMormon speaker on Friday afternoon. His remarks, entitled “The Courage of Our Convictions: Embracing Mormonism in a Secular Age,” seemed to draw from his recent book Planted, and were well received….”

https://www.amazon.com/Planted-Belief-Belonging-Age-Doubt/dp/1629721816

“Planted: Belief and Belonging in an Age of Doubt”

Anyway, thought I’d pass along the book reference while waiting for the speech to become available.

[tblue]

It’s quite possible that I don’t understand the question, but I remembered a site that seems to fit what you asked. If not, please forgive the interruption.

Book of Mormon: Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual

https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual?lang=eng

And here’s a site I hadn’t run across before:

http://www.ldsliving.com/Book-of-Mormon-Study-Resources/s/67008

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Listening to the BoM Discussion on Jacob 1-3, 7…

Stanley Johnson said that a Sunday School teacher once asked:

“

Quote:

Do you really believe another person’s soul is as precious as your own?”

That certainly stopped the parade of thoughts. Seemed to me that part of the problem of not respecting the soul of others had to do with feeling my own soul was of little worth (or that I even had one?).

This past Christmas season, I actually heard the lyrics to “O Holy Night” where it says:

“

Quote:

Long lay the world in sin and error pining

Till He appeared and the soul felt its worth…”

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Happy never after wrote:

Wayfarer, I have enjoyed reading this topic and your views regarding it. I had a glass of wine with friends at a fundraising trivia night. I did not feel that I lost any spiritual connection and I quite enjoyed to relaxing effect and wonderful conversation with friends. Unfortunately I find that it is quite difficult for some friends to open up and communicate in a friendship building manner until they have had an adult beverage. J have found building close relationships in the church very difficult as many people are to busy and see coming for dinner as work rather than relaxing. I believe it would profit many and build many great close relationships if a drink was allowed. Human closeness and interaction is invigorating for the soul. Moderation is the key. I do know many people including my husband who do want to abstain completely from these things as they fear they do not have sufficient self control to enjoy them. I am happy to support my husband in this way and abstain for him. Although I would enjoy a relaxing beverage from time to time it strangely brings peace to my soul.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts. I am enjoying the learning process.

Quote:

Although I would enjoy a relaxing beverage from time to time it strangely brings peace to my soul.

It was through the spiritual process of AA that I found, for me, that the ‘peace’ that came from alcohol was pseudo-peace. The closeness that I found with others using alcohol, didn’t last when the effects wore off. Had to keep recreating the conditions to recreate the feelings. It was a lie of the flesh that told me the solution to the misery of my soul was through external balms. SometimesI think the flesh can sense the longing of the soul for reconnection to Spirit; it registers/experiences the misery somehow and tries to provide worldly answers to a spiritual problem.

Discovering the many ways I had unconsciously sought to either escape or pseudo-fill the ‘hole in my soul’ was one of the fascinating outcomes of practicing inner awareness through mind tools.

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” – Rumi

[tblue]

DarkJedi wrote:

tblue wrote:

Come to think of it, I don’t know if it’s okay to discuss Bible topics in Stay LDS as there is no forum set aside for it. Please let me know if it’s a problem. I’m short on answers, but my mind just sorta gravitates toward questions regardless of which texts I am studying.

It is perfectly OK to discuss scripture on the forum as long as the discussion is not meant to damage or destroy the faith of another and it is in keeping with the mission of the forum (helping people StayLDS). Likewise, discuss does not mean argue – all are welcome to their points of view, and in respecting the views of others it would not be appropriate to attempt to “convert” people to our own point of view. And, we try to refrain from using the canon as a cannon (acknowledgement to Givens).

If you have specific scripture you’d like to discuss I’d suggest starting threads in the General Discussion, Spiritual Stuff or History and Doctrine sections. None of us here are spokespersons for the church, our opinions are our own – and as such if you choose to start such discussions you should be prepared for a variety of points of view which may not agree with your view or those of more orthodox Mormons.

Thanks for the clarifications and suggestions. I’m trying to understand my bent towards Mormonism, not escape it. Recently purchased a Quad for the cross-references, and an exhaustive concordance of the three Mormon books. Don’t know if there are other texts that may be helpful, but will keep an eye out for any mentioned in posts.

Oh, I did contact the bishop’s residence about six months ago. Spoke with his wife and gave her the information to check on my baptismal record (bishop was out of town). Didn’t hear back. Will maybe try again at some point if I feel the urge to do so.

[tblue]

DarkJedi wrote:

The rod of iron was seen in a vision/dream and like so many things in Mormonism is symbolic. It is kind of a cool story, often taken too literally IMO. Most members would probably tell you the iron rod represents the scriptures, and perhaps even specifically the Book of Mormon, due to the explanation in 1 Nephi 11:25 that it is the “word of God.” Others might take it a bit more broadly and include both church and personal revelation and/or keeping the commandments. An alternative interpretation might see it as the Word of God (Jesus Christ), or following the Savior (only a very small minority probably holds such alternative views). Of note in the vision (1 Nephi , neither Lehi nor Sariah, Sam and Nephi seemed to use the rod to reach the tree and Lehi doesn’t mention seeing it until after Laman and Lemuel would not come to eat the fruit and he saw others on the path, some of whom did use the rod.

We don’t claim to be able to control the Spirit so as to have it in a specific spot at a specific time, however most members believe the Spirit can be invited by things such as hymns, retelling the Joseph Smith story, bearing testimony (witness) or otherwise being “righteous” and conversely the Spirit won’t reside in places where sin is taking place. I do believe we can do things to make our place conducive to the Spirit, but I don’t think the Spirit is restricted and won’t necessarily go certain places – the Spirit is (a) God after all. In full disclosure, I also don’t believe the church or members have any sort of monopoly on the Spirit (but many members think we do).

I had completely missed “rod of iron” defined so clearly in 1 Neph. 11:25. Thanks!

Quote:

I also don’t believe the church or members have any sort of monopoly on the Spirit (but many members think we do.

The above is interesting. Maybe five or six times, I’ve had a definite impression that the Jesus and Holy Spirit being referred to in the BoM or Discussions – was a different Jesus/Holy Spirit than Paul speaks of in the NT. Of course, I’ve also questioned the Jesus who became so angry that He tossed the tables of the synagogue.

In a Scripture study forum a long while ago, we got to talking about the contradiction of the angry Jesus. Someone said that the concept of different persons of Jesus in the NT had been brought up before in the 1700-1800s: that Jesus had a brother alive at the same time and they are conflated. At the time, I couldn’t find any literature of this previously held idea, but perhaps I’ll check again.

The Bible sometimes points to Greek/Norse mythology in several places, and recently I’ve been reading about “Janus” for possible clues.

I find other questionable things in the NT…like Peter heading up the selecting of the replacement for Judas…by casting lots, which is definitely pagan/fates stuff. Also, Peter did this after Jesus ascended (Acts 1:9 and Acts 1:26). If Jesus wanted a replacement apostle, one would think he’d have done it himself after he arose from the dead, no? Paul seems, to me, to have been Jesus’ choice, if Jesus had an intention to replace Judas.

So, maybe some are correct in thinking that the Holy Spirit of Mormonism is unique to Mormonism, and perhaps the ‘burning in the bosom’ is an indicator? All I know is that if there are ‘2’, then they are mixed up in both places because I definitely feel I’ve heard Inspired thoughts in my association with Mormonism.

Come to think of it, I don’t know if it’s okay to discuss Bible topics in Stay LDS as there is no forum set aside for it. Please let me know if it’s a problem. I’m short on answers, but my mind just sorta gravitates toward questions regardless of which texts I am studying.

[tblue]

SilentDawning wrote:

tblue wrote:

SilentDawning wrote:

Knowing that some level of Masonic practices are part of Mormonism, I was curious as to whether there could be a ‘testing area’ of ‘applicants’. Perhaps far-fetched, but if anyone has any thoughts on this experience, I’d appreciate the info. Was it hoped I would experience the ‘burning in the bosom’? Don’t know.

There is no testing ground really for new members, although they do like you to attend church once before baptism and also be able to answer questions in a baptismal interview about your level of belief in the major doctrinal ideas in our religion. You also have to have taken the discussions. Most missionaries and bishops want to know you have a testimony. They believe this testimony comes from that burning in the bosom or from strong spiritual feelings that comes from being “filled with the Spirit”. Although you will find that missionaries and Bishops will vary on just how much of a spiritual experience you need to have had before they believe you have a testimony. Ultimately, it’s the missionaries and Mission Presidents’ call whether you have that testimony or level of belief to be baptized, although Bishops do interview potential new members at some point before or after baptism.

Feeling the spirit is the subjective litmus test of the truth of the gospel to most missionaries, mission presidents and Bishops.

So that is why they asked you those questions. It sounds like they didn’t think you felt anything or had testimony — that was why they shrugged their shoulders and didn’t proceed. Maybe they didn’t know how to handle the situation where people see the videos or have a spiritual experience and report feeling nothing, so they stopped trying? Mileage varies depending on the member or missionary…

Thanks DarkJedi and SilentDawning for helping me solve the mystery of the ‘corner experience’. My best guess was that some kind of spirit was stationed over that particular spot. That the spirit had ‘weighed me in the balance and found me wanting’, and my failure to be given the ‘feeling’ was proof to the missionaries not expend further effort. ‘Vain imaginations’? Yep, and a couple of others, but will spare you.

[tblue]

Quote:

I had done the search, I just didn’t know which one you were referring to. I agree there is much the NT doesn’t tell us, partly because of translation and word usage issues, partly because the context was assumed to be understood by the readers/listeners of the time, and partly due to various other reasons. That’s why I expressed an interest in what you referenced.

You can post a link. Above the text box click on URL and copy and paste the ling between the open/close brackets.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood a post where the link was removed by the moderator. Plus, past experience with other groups where you had to have x number of posts before you could post URLs. This link has both the program and PDF links on it.

http://www.scripture4all.org/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.scripture4all.org/

(If anyone is curious, it takes approx. 1500 pages, doubled-sided, for the NT PDFs.)

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Minyan Man wrote:

tblue, Welcome to the party. You said:

Quote:

What is bringing me out of lurker mode? A couple of recently read posts that gave me a strong ‘pull’. I know that I don’t have an intimate experience of Mormon life, but I hope you won’t mind if I share where our experiences meet up.

What are the posts the post that gave you the ‘pull’?

Also, an intimate experience of Mormon life is not required here.

It is always good to get new perspectives & experiences.

One was a quote by William James in History and Doc. Discussions, “First Vision – God’s rant about religions”. The other personal experience with the problem Joni describes in her Intro, “Why I’m Here”. Plenty of posts are interesting and make me think, but these pushed me over the edge into wanting to share experience, strength and hope.

For instance, the post on “stupor of thought” – the phrase hadn’t caught my attention before. Did a search and think I get it, and may even have experienced it before. I recalled (more than once ) writing a reply to a topic in an AA group and suddenly no longer knowing where I was going with it, so abandoned the effort. The next day I went back and looked at the draft to try to resurrect the all-important thoughts I was loathe to discard – and saw self-will all through it. Holy Spirit is subtle, but the ‘lessons’ can pack a wallop if I’m willing to heed and see. It’s just nice to have a phrase, now, to express that kind of experience. At least that’s my take-away, thus far, and will look for other applications.

[tblue]

DarkJedi wrote:

Welcome. I look forward to your unique insights.

I am interested in the scripture analyzer you mentioned. Can you share a link?

I think I’m too new to be allowed links but, if you type in Interlinear Scripture Analyzer, the Scripture4all site will come up (or vice-versa). They have two forms of the material – online in PDF format, and the downloadable program (terrific). Unfortunately, (to me) they no longer offer 2.0 on the site for the program. And the PDFs of the OT do not include the Strong’s numbers.

I have the executable 2.0 program if anyone wants it – but it works best on Win 7. I can’t get it to work on the laptop of Win 10. However, my SIL has Win 10 and it works on hers. Dunno. The downloadable program is amazing for Hebrew/Greek concordances – a lot is lost when only looking up English. Can also search by English words or Strong’s #s. Plus, in the program, clicking on a Strong’s will bring up the meanings.

I sincerely wished they would either add Strong’s to the OT PDFs, or make the program printable. Finally bit the bullet and used the Snipping Tool for copying each verse into Excel. Am currently in the process of printing the OT files. (Used the PDFs for the NT because it has the Strong’s #s.)

If anyone should decide they’d like the snipped files (OT or NT), I could put them in Dropbox and pass along the site when cleared to do so. Just so ya know, Genesis has taken a ream of paper (double-sided), but I just can’t study the way I like without paper to put notes on. I switched to non-OEM ink because of cost, and the company chosen seems to be good quality as it’s working fine. And Walmart has a great deal on paper. I’m (almost) on Cloud 9 – just a few more books to go.

Be prepared to be amazed at what the KJV doesn’t tell us.

[tblue]

SilentDawning wrote:

Welcome — one thing I didn’t get — you said the world gave a pull and you responded. Are you still a member of the church? Do you attend church at all? The answers to those questions in no way affect your fitting in here (many here are less active, some are no longer members), but it helps me understand where you are coming from…

Thanks for the welcomes…Technically, I may still be a member since I didn’t ‘undo’ anything. A year or so ago, I had the thought to see if the previous baptism was still in effect; however. it was half-hearted because I knew I could never be ‘all-in’ – I just very much wanted to be around like-minded seekers and attend study blocks. A couple of years ago, missionary sisters came by three or four times and I visited the stake. Only saw them once more after that.

Speaking of the stake visit…after watching the Joseph Smith video, the sisters and two brothers took me to a corner of the Meeting Room. After a bit, one of the sisters asked me (twice) if I “felt anything”. I hadn’t. But the second time I was asked, my antennae went up and I asked what feeling they were looking for exactly? A light shrug of the shoulders in answer, and we left the area soon after. Knowing that some level of Masonic practices are part of Mormonism, I was curious as to whether there could be a ‘testing area’ of ‘applicants’. Perhaps far-fetched, but if anyone has any thoughts on this experience, I’d appreciate the info. Was it hoped I would experience the ‘burning in the bosom’? Don’t know.

Anyway, after finding this site, I became content with ‘being on the fence’ between the two worlds of spiritual study, so to speak. My ultimate quest is to experience being Filled with Holy Spirit.

[tblue]

The most comprehensive site I found for the acronyms is:

http://www.cc.utah.edu/~nahaj/Mormon/

It has a lengthy list that gave me a base that I add to, as needed.

Please Note: The author attempts to be ‘balanced’ and offers a few derogatory terms of anti-Mormons. However, there is much more info that is useful for Mormon investigation, like the Bibliography and explanation of Mormon terms.

“No, there is no copyright notice here. What’s the point? If someone can make millions publishing it, fine… They are brighter than I am. If you find this information useful, you are welcome to include it in other documents. I prefer credit be given, but don’t require it.”

Maybe parts of this document could be pinned and added to when appropriate? It was far more time-consuming to find abbreviations/acronyms and explanations than I originally expected it to be.

There is also a book called:

The A to Z of Mormonism

By Davis Bitton, Thomas G. Alexander

http://books.google.com/books?id=br8dkeu3laAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

It has a Google Books excerpt and I particularly liked the Chronology of Mormonism. It also offers a dictionary of terms.

This is my first post and I’ll aim to provide an introductory post later this afternoon.

tblue

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