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OK, that last long post was about my meeting with mission president, 10 years ago. I was into deep doctrine, but I was solidly in the True Believing Mormon Camp. I had my faith crisis 2 years ago, and since then I’ve talked with one stake president and two bishops about my unique testimony. I’ve visited with them for several hours. I even got threatened with a disciplinary council. It’s a long story. If you want to hear more about it, then you can listen to this podcast I was on:
http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/08/05/ben-brother-of-morris/ It’s funny. Church leaders always want to meet in person. They don’t ever want to write letters or emails. That’s probably the safe thing to do. Letters and emails would probably show up on the Internet and make the Church look bad.
In my opinion, more of us should meet with our Church leaders about our historical and doctrinal questions. Well, every individual case is different. It might be scary to have a confrontation, but how is the Church ever going to become more compassionate and understanding if we all keep silent?
Although, I suppose the purpose of the StayLDS forum is not to advocate change in the Church on an institutional scale, but rather to help individual people stay in the Church. Generally speaking, I’m happy with the Church the way it is. I’m glad that you met with your bishop, Unknown, and I’m glad the meeting went well. Church leaders are usually nice people.
Oh yeah, but what I wanted to say was that I too have felt the controversies “melt away” when I’ve met with Church leaders. After a few minutes of chatting with church leaders face to face, I get the impression that the historical and doctrinal questions aren’t that big of a deal. It’s weird. But I think the Spirit is trying to tell me something. I think the Spirit is trying to tell me, the historical and doctrinal issues really aren’t that big of a deal! And what is the big deal? Jesus! And love!
Unknown wrote:In the past I’ve wanted to ask about a few things. But whenever I sat down with a bishop with the intention of asking about some of the controversies, they seemed to melt away and felt a bit silly. Good? Bad? I don’t know. But I’m wondering if this is unique to me.
Let me blab about my brief interactions discussing my questions with church leaders. Ten years ago, on my mission, a lot of the elders I was serving with liked to discuss “deep doctrine.” I loved it, too. I read all the missionary books, and then I ordered Mormon Doctrine and Answers to Gospel Questions and read a lot of those. I heard a lot of cool theories and came up with some really cool theories. Here’s a few of them:
The 3 Wise Men are Nephi, Lehi, (Nephi and Lehi from 3rd Nephi, not 1st Nephi) and Samuel the Lamanite. There’s a whole book about the theory called, “From the East: A Book of Mormon Perspective on the Three Wise Men” by Jeffrey Holt.
The Earth is going through spiritual progression much like humans are. Both humans and the earth were created spiritually first and psychically second. Both (8 year old Mormon) humans were baptized by water. Church leaders have taught that Noah’s Flood was the Earth getting baptized. Mormons have been “baptized by fire” meaning they were given the gift of the Holy Ghost. At the Second Coming, the Earth will be baptized by fire a.k.a. get the Holy Ghost. One day the Earth “will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory,” which I take to mean the Earth will be Resurrected. Here’s where it gets really fun: the Earth is referred to as female in the scriptures, and Enoch even hears Mother Earth talking in the Book of Moses. So, I figured that in order to keep progressing like Mormons do, the Earth will need to get married. And females need to marry males, so what kind of giant space-male would be available for the Earth to marry? The sun, of course! And I thought, whoa, wait a minute… if the Earth is female, maybe Venus and Neptune and all the other planets in our solar systems are female, too, and maybe they’re also going through some sort of spiritual progression. Maybe all 9 planets will one day be the polygamous celestial wives of the Sun! And right now the planets are orbiting the Sun because that’s how planets date and flirt!
And I had a lot of questions, such as:
How did Cain survive the Flood?
Did Adam have a belly button?
Will there be minorities in the Celestial Kingdom? (I’m not asking, “will mortal minorities that eventually make it to the Celestial Kingdom?” I’m asking, “In the Celestial Kingdom, will people still have their dark skin?”) Please don’t laugh this question off, folks. This seriously was a question I pondered when I was into all this deep doctrine stuff. In the scriptures, there’s a pattern of dark-skinned people getting white skin when they repent. And in all the Church movies and pictures whenever the pre-mortal life or the Celestial Kingdom is depicted, everybody there is white. And in 3rd Nephi it specifically says that the Nephites were white, just like Jesus was white. I thought that maybe when people got resurrected, if they got celestial bodies, they got white skin. Although, there is Alma 40:23 which says that when you’re resurrected, “not even a hair of your head will be lost” and all will be restored to its proper frame, so I didn’t see how a black person would get a skin that he had never had in mortality, although I suppose that babies who are born without legs or something crazy like that would get legs in the afterlife, so I guess it could make sense that all minorities would get a different skin color when they got resurrected. Please understand that when I had these questions, I wasn’t trying to be racist, and I don’t think I was racist, and I hope I’m not being racist now. I was just trying to understand true doctrine.
Is Cain Bigfoot?
Will the Holy Ghost ever get a body?
If I become a God, and I get my own planets, will Christ’s Atonement apply to the people that live on my planets, or will some other person have to do some other Atonement? Or on my planets, can I just figure out some other plan of salvation?
How, exactly, do you make a spirit baby?
Is there still a glowing Tree of Life in Missouri with cherubim and a flaming sword guarding it?
Does the Church have the Sword of Laban locked up in a vault somewhere, or maybe the keep it in the Holy of Holies in the Salt Lake City Temple?
Did Moroni dedicate the land for the Manti temple, as he was journeying alone from Central America to New York? And if so, does that explain why the Manti temple seems to have Native American architecture?
These questions sound funny, but they were real questions! And I had like 30 questions like this! Well, one day, I was chatting with some other missionaries, and one of them said, something like, “I bet the Prophet knows the answers to all these questions. He just can’t talk about it because the Saints aren’t ready to handle it. Maybe if we all read the Book of Mormon every day and did our home teaching every month, then we would have the mysteries revealed to us.”
And another missionary said, “Yeah, I bet the Prophet knows some crazy stuff. And the Twelve. The Seventy probably know a lot of crazy stuff, but not all the crazy stuff like the Prophet does.”
And another missionary said to me, “Hey Elder Telemoonka, you should ask our mission president some of your deep doctrine questions. Unless you become a Stake President or something, you’ll probably never get another opportunity in your life to talk with a mission president one-on-one. He probably knows the answers to a lot of these questions”
And that missionary was right, you know. Ordinary members never really get an opportunity to ask doctrinal questions to high-ranking Church leaders. So one time I prepared for an interview with my mission president by making a list of 30 or so deep doctrine questions. I was determined to ask them and I was going to write down whatever he said. I knew his time was precious, so I was going to talk fast.
After talking about the ordinary stuff like, “How’s the missionary work going, Elder?” I started asking him the questions, and he gave very brief, vague answers. After about a minute or two, his body language changed. I could tell my mission president did not like my questions. I said, “Keep in mind, President, I believe in milk before meat. I would never teach this stuff to investigators. But I want to know the truth, and I know that you’re a really smart mission president who has studied the gospel his whole life, and I’ll never get this opportunity again, so that’s why I’m asking you these questions.”
Well, he just kept giving short answers, or changing the subject, or saying, “I don’t know. It’s not pertinent to our salvation. I don’t worry about things like that.”
I left the interview feeling kind of bad and kind of confused. I got the impression that it just wasn’t appropriate to ask questions like that. I felt like maybe I had done something wrong. So I never asked him or any other church leader questions like that again. I was really into deep doctrine for a while, but I guess eventually I just stopped caring about the mysteries of eternity.
So, Unknown, I know what you mean about feeling silly when you ask doctrinal questions. The leaders just have this body language that seems to say, “Don’t ask me doctrinal questions. It’s not appropriate.”
Kirby sure is a funny writer. He probably stays LDS the way that I stay LDS: keeping his mouth shut in Church and frequently skipping Sunday School. I wonder if Kirby’s ever been threatened a disciplinary council. Kirby’s a brave guy. I mean, it takes guts to attach your real name to hundreds of articles that are published in the Salt Lake Tribune that are skeptical of the Church. (I assume Robert Kirby is his real name.) Hey Hawkgrrrll it looks like we read the same articles. I’m friends with Dennis Prager on Facebook, (maybe the correct terminology is “I follow him”) and he shared a link to that article, and then I shared his link to that article. It’s great. Thanks. No, I wasn’t kidding! What’s wrong with my suggestions? It sounds like DarkJedi has been having this problem with his teen for a long time. I’m trying to help. Listen, I’m a blue-collar worker. I’m not a touchy-feely counselor or anything. If these types of comments aren’t welcome here, that’s totally fine. Let me know. I just wanted to help and provide a new perspective that hasn’t been offered yet. The 3 things I listed, putting the fear of God into DarkJedi’s son, getting rid of the Internet altogether, and threatening to kick the sexting teen out of the house, are all things that my parents did.
I was totally scared of Hell when I was a kid, and maybe psychologists nowadays think that’s bad, but you know what? My fear of Hell kept me from doing a lot of awful things. I’m thankful that I was- and still am- afraid of eternal punishment. I realize that a lot of our testimonies of the people on StayLDS are non-traditional, but don’t we still believe in an afterlife in which we’ll be rewarded for good behavior and punished for bad behavior, to some degree?
We didn’t have the Internet when I was a kid, so I guess my parent’s never technically took that away… but they did take away TV privileges, phone privileges, etc., as a form of punishment. They were effective punishments.
My Dad really did kick some of his children out of the house, (although, they were 17 and 18 years old, not 15.) And he’s a good Dad! He’s a great Dad! He was kind a “my way or the highway” father. Maybe you shouldn’t go to that extreme, DarkJedi, but I think kicking your kid out of the house should not be taken off the table.
It sounds lil DarkJedi has already had heart to heart talks with his son, and tried all the gentle persuasion and love unfeigned stuff. If diplomatic negotiations aren’t working, maybe it’s time for some military action!
To the people who asked about my former missionary companion who believes he’s a literal descendant of Jesus Christ, yeah I still keep in touch with him. He’s a really great guy. I’m friends with him on Facebook. He’s married and has 3 kids and he’s a financial manager. He’s not unusual or anything. He told me his Dad told him about his lineage when he was in the celestial room in the temple when he got his endowments for the first time. So this is something he really really really believes, but he doesn’t like to talk about it because it’s so sacred. Of course it’s appropriate to have spiritual hopes for your children! You have career hopes for your children, health hopes for your children, it only makes sense that you should have spiritual hopes for them, too. You always love your children, sure, but that doesn’t mean you always approve of their choices. You should do your best to teach your children right from wrong. I think when your son becomes 12, you should encourage him to get the Aaronnic Preisthood conferred upon him and to be ordained to the office of a deacon. Then he’ll fit in with the other kids. You can’t really get through church as a young man without getting the priesthood. How would he feel if all the other boys his age were passing the sacrament, and he never could? That would make him the black sheep of the quorum. If he doesn’t really want the priesthood, well… gosh… I don’t know buddy. Maybe you could ask him if he wants to keep participating in church. If he does, then say that getting the priesthood is just part of what you do when you participate in the Church.
But yes, you are in a tough position because you’re not really modeling priesthood behavior yourself. So, in essence, you’re kind of saying, “Do as I say, not as I do,” so I guess one option is you could come back into more full activity, for the sake of your son.
If your oldest kid is only 8, tell him or her that all is well in Zion. Have your kids baptized and keep acting like a good Mormon for the rest of your life. That’s my plan. It’s working for me. I’m a pretty happy guy. That should be your plan, too. Do you teach your kids about Santa Claus? If so, you should have no reservations about teaching them the romanticized version of Church history.
You grew up being taught the traditional LDS narrative, right? And you turned out pretty good, right? Well then keep teaching the traditional narrative to your kids! Odds are, your kids will turn out pretty good.
I know what you’re going through, in a small way, at least. My oldest kid is 4 years old, and the other day she asked me about Heaven. She asked me what people do in Heaven, and I said they sit on clouds and play harps. She asked me if Joseph Smith was in Heaven, and I said yeah. I wish she would stop asking me questions like that. I wish we could just enjoy our game of Candyland.
Tell your son that if he dies while he’s in this sordid sexting relationship, he’ll go to Hell, and tell him that Hell is a horrible horrible place where demons stab him with pitchforks over and over. That’s what kept me semi-chaste when I was a teenager… the fear of hellfire and damnation. Another option is to get rid of the Internet in your house completely, so that if he does sext with his girlfriend, it has to be outside of your house.
Or maybe you could kick him out of the house, or threaten to kick him out of the house. This was one tactic my parents used. It’s pretty harsh, but it’s effective.
Maybe you can accept the calling, but just don’t magnify it. Ha ha ha. I mean, look for the things in the calling that are meaningful and spiritually uplifting, and do those. Discard the rest. For example, I’m a Young Men’s Secretary, and I’m supposed to take attendance, but I don’t. All I have to do is give a number to the ward clerk once a quarter, so that’s what I do. Basically all I do is send out an email once a week and sub for classes once in a blue moon. I go to a few meetings, but I skip some. Everybody seems cool with it. I don’t hear any complaints. I guess no news is good news. But my home teaching calling I take more seriously. I like home teaching because I really feel like I can connect with individuals and spread the good news of Jesus Christ. And about your dissatisfaction at not fulfilling some of your childhood dreams, um… I’m only 31, so I don’t have the perspective or life experience that an old man would. But I did become a teacher… for a year… and that went horribly, so now I work a blue collar job. At first it was really humbling sweeping floors and taking out trashes. But I got used to it, and I guess my job is pretty cool. I wrote a poem called “Almost” that might help you:
Almost
I almost climbed Mount Everest
But stopped when it got real cold.
I was gonna read the Encyclopedia
In one long stretch, feeling bold.
Aardvarks sure are funny-looking,
As are most things beginning with A,
Like abdomens, Alaska, alligators, ambitions…
Almost I arrived in Arizona. Instead I called it a day.
And what a day it was!
The flowers! The sunset!
The chicken, the mashed potatoes, the gravy!
The slice of blueberry pie!
And then the moon and then the stars
And then the dark dark night,
The rushing, the climbing, the speed-reading
world fading, fading from my sight.
And then the warmth of my breathtaking bed
And not a goal, not a wish, not a thought
to intrude upon my satisfied head.
Yes, it is a folk doctrine among Mormons that Jesus was married, but no, it’s not really taught any more. When I was TBM, I believed that he was married, to Mary Magdelene. The way it was explained to me was that you have to be married to get to the top level of the celestial kingdom, so of course Jesus would be married. Also, there’s that stuff in the Book of Mormon about Jesus being baptized to fulfill all righteousness and to show everyone by example that they should be baptized. So, to me, it only made sense that Jesus would have participated in the sealing ordinance, to fulfill all righteousness and to show us an example. One of my missionary companions said that his father told him that he was a literal descendant of Jesus Christ. This missionary companion of mine believed it wholeheartedly. What do I think now about Jesus’ marital status? I have no idea. Want to hear something funny? When my wife and I were dating, we read scriptures together, and when we got to D and C section 132, we both put on lipstick and kissed each other’s scriptures, so we still have lip prints in our scriptures, at the bottom of the page. We did that because the section was about love and eternal marriage. I vote for keeping D & C 132 in the LDS canon, but just ignoring the bad parts. If we’re still going to preach eternal marriage, we have to keep some of Section 132 in there. That’s really the only place in the scriptures that talks about eternal marriage.
cwald wrote:
If the church doesn’t want me, they can kick me out.k
Yeah, that’s how I feel too. From private conversations with my bishop and stake president, I get the sense that the Church wants me. As long as I don’t go spreading anti-Mormon propaganda/historical facts, the Church is fine with me, and I’m fine with the Church. The way I look at it, if they kick me out, they should also kick out John Dehlin, Hans Mattson, Tom Philips, Joanna Brooks and other people like that.
Some Username84, I recommend that continue wearing your garments. You’re on a forum called “Stay LDS” so I assume you want to stay LDS, and wearing garments will help you feel LDS. If you switch over to Gentile underwear, you’ll feel more like a Gentile. Also, I do think that garments have protective spiritual qualities. Call me superstitious, but that’s what I think.
