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I am not even sure now why I feel some desire to stay. To be honest, I don’t really want to stay. When I do feel like staying, much of it comes from avoiding the judgment of family and friends, wanting to go back to something comfortable and familiar, wanting to attend the temple (except some of it bothers me), feeling the need to do service, and feeling the desire to improve church culture through my own contribution. But above all else, I often feel the need to stay LDS because I get overwhelmed with fear at times that if I don’t, and the church turns out to be what it claims, that I will be unable to live with God…that I will have made myself into the kind of person that can’t bear God’s presence.
On a personal level, I just don’t want to be there. On an intellectual level, I can understand the idea of letting go of what I don’t believe and just showing up and contributing my unique voice. But I have been hurt too much. I suffer almost daily the wounds of emotional abuse from my church experiences. I can’t even look at a bishop without fearing that he reads my soul and will find me out. I can barely bring myself to even listen to a talk by someone as awesome as Uchtdorf, because he reminds me of the church. I love the church. Or at least I did. I don’t know. But it has become such a shame trigger for me that it feels unhealthy for me to be there. People that don’t share my beliefs tell me that I seem happier, and they don’t even know about any of this. Some of them don’t even know I am LDS.
Another reason I don’t want to go is because my 10-yr-old son already demonstrates scrupulosity tendencies. He is afraid of doing things wrong and not getting to live with me after this life, despite all of the efforts I have put into helping him develop self-worth, think for himself and not live in fear and shame. My LDS mother and sister have caused him to be in tears and literally come home saying to me, “Dad, I don’t want you to die and go to hell! I want to live with you after this life.” His mother is one of the most rigid TBMs that I have ever met. Much of it is her fault, and not the church. But I can’t let the church off the hook, either. I try to imagine going to church with my son, and it creates feelings of irresponsibility as a parent. I know how it will affect him, and not in a good way. I am not sure that myself and my son are in a place to receive the good in the church, because of our emotional, shame-based wounds. Yet, my son will still go to church every other weekend when he is at his mom’s.
I feel like I am torn between doing what may be best in an eternal spectrum, and doing what is healthy and responsible in this life. And when I have this realization, I must come to the conclusion that what is healthy in this life will lead to heaven. I cannot imagine a heaven where people must suffer emotional abuse to be prepared for heaven.
To go to church would mean weekly damage-control conversations with my son, and then me having to talk with my fiancé to work through whatever may trigger my shame. I think of the costs of going, and the benefits start becoming insignificant in comparison really fast. I can get benefits elsewhere.
But if my temple covenants are real and I am breaking them and losing exaltation through these choices, that scares the crap out of my scrupulous side. Sometimes I would give my right arm to have the self-confidence that others have to think their own opinions without fear of being wrong.
I do feel strongly, from my own personal experiences and inspiration, that God is trying to teach me to trust myself right now. I am starting to feel more and more that my calling in life at this point is not going to be in the church. I don’t fault anyone else who is in the church. We all have our paths. But that is what I am feeling. But I am also scared to take that path. And I must also recognize that I can’t predict the future. But right now, I just don’t know how to be there.
I feel more liberated than ever. I feel more scared than ever. I feel more confident than ever. I feel more uncertain than ever.
I have never liked that GAs tell you to go find your own answers through prayer and personal testimony, yet always have the unspoken expectation that you better receive the right answer or you are deceived. If you are going to tell others they must find out for themselves, you better actually give them the freedom to disagree with you. Now, granted I understand that the church must protect itself against people who receive inspiration and then take it upon themselves to preach their own doctrine in the church. But when it comes to your own personal life, I should not feel obligated to receive the “correct inspiration” in order to feel worthy. I felt inspired (both through prayer and my own reasoned, well thought out decision making process) to divorce my first wife, and it has turned out to be just as good a decision as I felt it was at the time. Yet, when I told him where my prayers were leading me regarding my marriage, I was literally told by my branch president at the time that “You have been deceived by the devil.” He proceeded to use scriptures about Korihor and Cain to demonstrate what devilish deception can do to a person. I honestly believe, at this point in my life, that some people are genuinely inspired to remain in the church and that others are genuinely inspired to leave the church. After all, the world is full of billions of people, almost all of which are not LDS. I think it is narrow thinking to believe that God will always direct all people into this church. If that was his plan, then he has done a poor job at it, when .002% (or something around there) of the world is LDS. Divine work must be done on all fronts, with all people. When the scriptures talk about a great and marvelous work, I believe it is a worldwide evolution, of which the LDS church is only one part of.
But despite what I believe, I am also working toward a place of peace in recognizing that my beliefs will always change and evolve. I try to avoid the certainty of believing my current beliefs are finally “the right way.” I believe that inspiration is never meant to be a certain process. I believe that Joseph Smith received inspiration. I believe that many prophets and members of the church have received inspiration. But it is getting harder and harder to believe that they receive inspiration that entails true facts. I feel like inspiration is trying to communicate through a tin can and a string. God’s thoughts are so much higher than ours that anything he says to us passes through magnitudes of layers that are like the world’s worst ‘telephone game.’ But I believe it is meant to be that way, because we are meant to walk by faith in this life, and not walk by certainty in the truths we try to grasp.
I listened to a Mormon Matter podcast today. In it, someone said, “Do not confuse the finger pointing toward the moon to be the moon itself.” In other words, don’t confuse the inspiration pointing toward God to be the same thing as the way God and his truths really are. We are striving to point towards God, not striving to have certain, infallible truths about God in this life. I think we are here learning to
feelwhat truth feels like, not have an accurate intellectual understanding of truth. We are here to tastegood and evil, not be expert theologians on what good and evil factually are. Bruce R. McConkie: “This is worse than false. It is an evil and pernicious doctrine.”
On the contrary, I have come to believe that CERTAINTY is a dangerous doctrine. I love this quote by Joseph Smith:
“Why be so certain that you comprehend the things of God, when all things with you are so uncertain?”
People in the LDS church are so quick to be “certain” and it causes a lot of damage. Because when you are uncertain, it is easy to believe that you are being “evil and pernicious.” I find it ironic how quick certain leaders have been to preach certainty, when so many past “certain” doctrines have been discredited. You would think that people would learn to stop trusting in certainty.
But then again, I was one of those people that trusted in certainty. I still struggle with the desire to have it and I get scared at times admitting that I don’t have certainty. But, life has truly shown me what Joseph Smith said: “All things with you are so uncertain.”
All things. Thanks, Ray. That really helped, and in more ways than what I was just talking about in my post. It was actually very timely for what has been on my mind. The whole three degrees of glory and no moving to other kingdoms for all eternity, “worlds without end,” has been a source of great anxiety for me, as well. I have no fear of going to hell, but I have struggled with the fear of going to heaven and being told, “Sorry, you get to live in paradise, but you don’t get to live in the greatest part of paradise, with your Father and Mother, because you weren’t faithful enough in life and, well, there is nothing you can do for all eternity to progress any further.” It seems like a very raw deal in a mortal world where none of us know anything with certainty. I have read some accounts of near-death experiences that imply character growth changes much slower, if at all, in the next life, however. Because of that, I have this fear at times that if I just don’t grow enough, I am going to be stuck the way I am in the next life, as far as character goes, and that I will no longer know how to continue to grow in love, compassion, faith, and charity. That I will only be able to grow in knowledge and abilities, but not virtue. Just saying this out loud seems really ludicrous. Brigham Young does say that progression as a spirit happens much slower than the change we can effect as mortals. I am okay with that. It means I still get to change, and I have eternity to do it. I like the idea that mortality is an accelerated growth plan, because it is so challenging and painful and requires so much faith. But I also need to know that I am not building some eternal brick wall, through my mortal actions, that I will never be able to pass, throughout all eternity.
I personally believe the entire universe as we can see it is only the mortal aspect of creation, and that there is an entire spiritual, higher realm that we simply cannot see with our eyes or any scientific instruments at this point. Perhaps the universe is just the training ground for eternity and there is a whole other eternal universe that we cannot see. Who knows. As far as being happy for eternity, I have learned an important truth through personal experience: happiness comes from learning how to find joy in the things you already have. My happiest moments are being able to look at the same tree with new eyes, the same lover with new eyes, etc. Any other happiness is based on things that will change and ultimately burn out. We must learn to find joy in things as they are and not expect eternal joy to come from new experiences. We create new experiences through our perspectives and faith, not by new stimulus. God cannot have new stimulus, as far as we know. Yet if he is happy, it must be in knowing how to love what he has already created and learned.
In fact, I think that is what true love really is: loving things because they are what they are. Evil is the absence of the way things really are…a great lie that blocks us from seeing reality and creates a fantasy that exists only in our own minds.
God’s love enables him/her to be happy forever. Every new child, every existing creation…these are joyful because God knows how to find joy in everything. Sure, gaining knowledge and experience is a part of joy, but I think even that is a fruitless pursuit if you cannot also keep finding joy in the experiences and knowledge you already have. In essence, addiction is the problem of only knowing how to find happiness in new experiences, while believing your existing experiences aren’t good enough. It is chasing the end of the rainbow, it is always drinking but never feeling quenched.
Kipper wrote:Think of it as an aid, not as the Way.
This view probably helps me more than most others. Just as the Sabbath was made for man, and man was not made for the Sabbath, so I love to remind myself that the church was made for man and man was not made for the church. Unfortunately, we are more often taught that we are made to obey the church.
Right now in my life, the church does not aid me. Maybe one day it will. I find my spirituality blossoming more without it. I just can’t shake the oppressive feeling I get just walking into church now. Taking the sacrament is probably one of the times that is truly personal for me. But the talks, the classes, the assignments…I just feel emotionally like I am in a room with no air flow. It is not worth it to me to pick through all of this to occasionally hear the inspirational talk. And I am not just talking about picking through boring or limited stuff. I am talking about having to endure shame-based ideas, conformity expectations, sexual rigidity, close-minded teachings about how to view other truths and religions, group-think, leader obedience, whitewashed primary teachings for my kids that I will have to keep undoing, etc. It’s not just about being patient while I participate in a group that has inspiration at times. It is about wading through harmful ideas in the name of doing service and seeking inspiration. The fact of the matter is, I can find opportunities for service and inspiration without the church and without the harmful ideas.
And I fully recognize that it takes more motivation to be of service outside of church. It takes more effort to seek them out. But it is my goal and my desire to help the human race more. Frankly, so much of my service in the church was out of obedience and not because I was learning to have true charity. I trust God to show me how to be more charitable one step at a time, instead of beating myself up for not being as charitable as I should.
Forgotten Charity, your post made a lot of sense to me and resonates with me. I have felt that exact pull in my personal life. I have had that exact discussion with my fiancé about fearing freedom. My therapist likes to tell me: “The only thing we are truly doomed to is freedom.” Some people who have had near-death experiences report that God values our freedom above all else. Freedom is scary. Security feels safe. Growing up is scary. I think one of my biggest struggles with how much I believe in the church has to do with outward signs: the tremendous growth of the church in the beginning. The faith of thousands who crossed oceans to gather. The temples that we build all over the world and put so much time into. The unique doctrines that came to Joseph Smith constantly. The witnesses of some people saying they saw Christ. The financial size of the church. I have spent so much time viewing all of these things as God’s hand pushing this church along, as we have been taught. It is the stone cut out of the mountain without hands. I guess I just view the church in such a unique position that implies there is more direct divine direction in it.
But then I realize that occasionally history has organizations that pop up that grow and make a difference in almost miraculous ways. I suppose we could say that of some business in history. Some empires, some religions, have had the power to do miraculous things…at least miraculous in the sense that they accomplished great feats. I am not suggesting that these great feats are always good. Certain conquerors did some amazing things, even if also evil.
Or perhaps the church isn’t as amazing as it portrays itself. Perhaps I have just been taught to view everything about it as divine, when in reality, it is not necessarily accomplishing anything terribly unique. I don’t know. I wish I still didn’t sometimes get hit with this fear that I am an apostate…that I will wake up one day in God’s presence and be shown that I was deceived by the wickedness of the world and I lose some of my eternal happiness. I certainly do things that would be considered partaking of the ‘world’ in the eyes of the church.
Yet I feel happier than ever. In the end, I have to trust the personal fruits of my choices and the direction that personal inspiration takes me. It truly is scary. This freedom is scary. But in the end, I would rather be accountable to God for how I followed my heart and conscience, and not how well I followed leaders and the strong opinions of others and the things taught to me from my infancy.
I feel so much like I am between a rock and a hard spot. I feel very much like I am being forced to follow certain rules that I think miss the mark in order that I may experience certain spiritual things that have a lot of meaning and power for me. I have gone through a process for many years regarding sexuality and the WoW. I treat sexual addictions for a living. I treat drug addictions for a living. I have worked for years with LDS people who consider themselves to be sex addicts simply because they masturbate. They are being identified by spouses and bishops as sex addicts, when they actually do not meet any real criteria for sex addiction. I see similar dynamics with the WoW. I see LDS people become downright obsessive about avoiding caffeine, alcohol, and coffee and completely disregard the actual consequences of real health. Some wine is good for you. Alcohol has some benefits but obviously can become addictive, like most things in life. A mountain dew will always be far worse for your health than coffee, yet one will keep you out of the temple (if you admit drinking coffee) and the other won’t.
I simply completely disagree now with what the word of wisdom has become in our modern church. I have not once heard a GA speak about following the word of wisdom by seeking organic food, avoiding processed foods, eating sugar in moderation, etc. Only the alcohol and coffee and drugs are mentioned. I have watched people in my counseling become absolutely drowned in sexual shame for masturbating or looking at porn sometimes. The shame can be so powerful. I just recently had an LDS family I work with, where the 15-yr-old daughter had her first sexual experience through oral sex and the father, when he found out about it, told her what she did was next to murder. !!!!!!!!!!!! The anger that kindles in me is so strong, because I get to work firsthand with the intense damage. There are few messages that can be sent that are more damaging to a young teenager than to teach them that their sexual desires or mistakes with sexual behaviors is next to murder. They are so far apart. Adultery, wherein true betrayal takes place and hearts are literally broken to pieces…now that I can see as being up in the ranks of serious sins. I know how I would feel if my fiancé cheated on me and even thinking about a hypothetical is almost too much for me to contemplate. But adolescent sexual experimenting is nothing of the sort. It is risky. It can be dangerous. It can be harmful…but it is nothing like what church culture states it to be.
These issues signify missing the mark to such a great degree in my mind that I can barely stand it at times. I have decided to drink alcohol at times. I feel very passionately about avoiding addiction. I feel passionately about moderation in all things. My fiancé and I are sexual, because my heart is tied to her more securely than any temple ordinance or legal paper could create for me. I live healthier than I ever have. I eat raw foods. I pay conscious attention to my health. Back in the days of strict WoW obedience, I barely paid attention to my health, but boy did I do a good job on those things. And I got to go to the temple as a result. Back in the days of strict obedience to sexual standards, I could go to the temple, but I was clueless as to what healthy sexuality looked like. I was rife with fear of women tempting me. I was terrified of sexual mistakes. I carried heavy shame about my own sexual desires. I feared my sexual desires. To engage in sexual sin really was next to murder in my mind, because that is what the church taught. I spent most of my life feeling terrible about myself and pleading to God in agony to remove my sexual ‘temptations.’ Now, sex has become a truly holy thing for me. I value it as a wonderful, bonding experience. And I have not fear of it anymore. I honor the power it has to bring people close together and I guard the trust it brings with it with great determination. I know how valuable it is and how much the violation of sexual trust can bring to a partner.
In other words, I follow the spirit of physical health and healthy, spiritual sexuality more than I ever had in my life. And I can’t go to the temple because of it. Sure, I could choose to not drink any coffee or alcohol at all. I could choose to be celibate until we are officially married, so I can go to the temple and answer the covenant questions honestly. But I just can’t bring myself to follow a rule just to jump through hoops. I miss the temple deeply. Some of my most powerful spiritual experiences have been there. I know God would speak to me there, just as he does in other places. But I cannot abandon certain aspects of the beautiful relationship I have with my fiancé to go there. To sacrifice that part in the name of going there would be disingenuous to me.
I think I am ranting now. It is obvious that I feel strongly about this, but I have seen too much pain in my own life and in the life of my clients because of strict rules that miss the mark. It is sad to me how little so many LDS people know about a truly erotic, passionate, holy sex life…the kind where sex and God and your partner are intertwined.
I love my life more than I ever have. But there are wounds and I miss the temple. I don’t even know if the ordinances are literal or not, but I miss it. I don’t see how I can answer TR questions without feeling like I am blatantly lying. I feel like I follow the law of chastity, because I honor my sexual commitment to my fiancé with complete fidelity. That is the spirit of the law to me. But the church, including the temple, is very specific about what chastity means. I don’t feel like I can ‘stretch it’ on this one. Even though I feel at peace about it with God.
Thanks for letting me get some feelings out. I hope I didn’t sound to much like I was on a soap box.
I think a lot of the mentality driving this type of work in the church is Joseph Smith’s teaching that: “A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has the power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.” We also make a covenant in the temple to give everything to the church, including our own lives if necessary. I mean, that expectation pretty much leaves nothing out for what the church can expect of us. No amount of time, money, service, or mental burden is too much within those parameters.
That quote by Joseph Smith has always been difficult for me. It makes me feel guilty for not being willing to do more. It makes me worry that the only way to receive the highest glory in heaven is to be willing to serve whenever asked, no matter the cost. I mean, if you are expected to give your life if you were called upon to do that, then it would stand to reason that you must also be willing to give up your mental health.
Yet, the church has made movements to relieve burdens, such as encouraging the reduction of unnecessary meetings or other such things. So, how do you decide which sacrifices are worthy and which ones are excessive? How do you discern between “sacrifice all things” and sacrificing in unhealthy ways? How do you feel about that quote by Joseph Smith? How much is his quote related to what the Savior said about being willing to take up our cross to follow him?
I guess I just don’t really understand or feel comfortable about the relationship between sacrifice and heavenly blessings/faith. On the one hand, we admire people that make great sacrifices, the Savior’s sacrifice being the greatest one of all. Yet, we also get up in arms about being asked to make burdensome sacrifices, such as cleaning the building or home teaching or too many meetings or being a bishop who rarely sees his family, etc. What is the difference?
My own best response to these questions is that sacrifice is only useful when you offer it willingly, out of love, with your own free will, and not because you have been guilted or feel pressured or obligated or like your eternal salvation is at stake.
This was a good listen. I really enjoyed their perspectives and insights. However, I also still ended it with this general feeling of everyone trying to uphold the role of the prophet, while basically making the point that the prophet isn’t really in a position different than the rest of us. Basically, that he is a wise, experienced president of an organization. That we should show him respect for his role and listen to his wisdom. I would apply that same advice to any individual who is loving, wise, and has a lot of life experience.
Yet, for all the wisdom, history has shown many LDS prophets and apostles to be more traditionalists than wise people. Sometimes I feel like more is taught about preserving the ‘good ole’ days’ and upholding ‘righteousness’ with a closed mind than using actual wisdom. Granted, it is not one sided. There have been many wise things that have been taught, as well. But my main point, is that many people in the world offer lots of wisdom and occasional bad or prejudiced advice. What makes the prophet the prophet? Is he just an administrator and CEO?
Perhaps he is meant to fill exactly that role, and wait for those rare moments when God does have something specific to reveal. Perhaps God just needs a person in that position to lead and to be ready, in case a genuine revelation is needed. The problem with this perspective, however, is that the church doesn’t teach this. The church teaches that the prophet is being a prophet all of the time. The primary song, ‘Follow the prophet” and the hymn, ‘We thank thee of God for a prophet” both are examples of this expectation. Yes, they say that a prophet is only being a prophet when the speak for the Lord, but they have a very wide definition of when these occasions occur: Ensign, official church publications, General Conference, etc. The church is just starting to admit when prophets have claimed to be speaking for God and been dead wrong, but there is no discussion about modifying or clarifying our view of what a prophet is. “Keep following the prophet and never mind that they have actually led people down paths of prejudice and bigotry in the past.”
So, in essence, I think the church needs a new definition of what it means to follow the prophet. We don’t need a patriarchal figure for us to abandon our agency toward in the name of obedience and thoughtless trust.
Now that being said, the role of a prophet that is most inspiring to me is their examples of love and service. I don’t know that I will ever be able to show the degree of dedication and Christian service that most prophets seem to embody.
The YouTube link posted by ForgottenCharity is a video of my friend and colleague. I work as a counselor adjacent to his office and have been friends with him for a couple years. I have got to watch the behind-the-scenes perspective of his process and struggle. I have watched him go from being completely off the radar to Mormon superstar overnight when he came out to the broader community on his blog. I will say that he does not expect anyone to make the choice he has. He spends a lot of time trying to empower people in his counseling to make their own choices, free of shame. That being said, I do believe the church hopes all LDS gay people will do the same thing, even though they won’t come out and say it. I believe his choice can be a genuine act of faith without repressing his sexuality, and I believe anyone has the option to make that choice IF they truly desire it and have worked to a place that they feel truly good about it. But I believe his situation is very much the exception and I have watched many people use his story to tell all of the gay Mormons, “See! That’s what you would do if you were being faithful!” I think for most gay LDS people, the option of being in a heterosexual marriage is a bad choice. You cannot truly make a sacrifice unless you have truly claimed the right to make your own decision. You can’t say no unless you feel free to say yes. Most LDS gay people don’t feel free to say yes to their sexual orientation. So, they try to force themselves to say no…which is very damaging.
I am definitely in that place still where half of me doesn’t believe any of the truth claims of the church anymore, and the other half of me just can’t shake the feeling that there truly is God’s official church under all the imperfections. Is it possible that the church has been in an era, since the days of Brigham Young, where faith simply isn’t strong enough for any real revelation or miracles to be manifested yet? As Mormon (or Moroni, I forget) put it, there can only be miracles if there is faith. Will the day come when the church is truly tried and real faith starts to emerge that finally allows miracles to appear? Some old TBM part of me wants to believe this, yet I can’t really anymore. At this point in my life, I feel like I am left to choose what I believe and live with integrity with those beliefs. Sometimes I think God is less concerned with how many facts we have right in this life, and more concerned with how sincere and devoted we are to following the things that we believe to be good and worthy.
In fact, this reminds me of a near-death experience where the person clearly stated that God often allows mortals to continue in false beliefs about Him if it serves them well in receiving the growth they were sent here to experience. To be clear, they didn’t say that God caused the false beliefs, but didn’t go out of His way to correct the false beliefs. I got the impression that this life is not the time for correct facts, but for growth, experience, and making choices. The next life is the time to get the facts straight, because at that point, much of our character growth will have already taken place.
If that is true, then perhaps the priesthood is simply a structure designed to get us to believe in divine service and live according to it. It is meant to promote faith and love, even if the power it claims is not literal. Who knows. Sometimes I get tired even bothering to figure out what is true from an objective standpoint, because it seems rather apparent that nobody ever gets to figure that out.
I am reminded of a quote from one of my favorite sci-fi movies, Serenity, where a character is on his death bed and says to his friend: “I don’t care what you believe. Just believe it.” It is reminiscent of what Joseph Smith said about people being damned for not believing and never for believing too much. I kind of take that to mean it is okay to believe false things as long as they lead you to do good. But the failure to believe and exercise faith leaves you in a place where your heart is no longer able to receive divine goodness and hope.
Perhaps to believe does not mean to believe in the correct facts, but simply to have a believing heart. A believing heart will always be ready to receive truth when the person sees it, and when your heart is in this place, then you will be ready to believe all of the true facts when they are presented to you in the next life. If you have an unbelieving heart, perhaps you will not even believe the facts when they are presented to you in the next life. Or perhaps you will believe them, but not be ready to exercise faith to follow them. Anyway, I am just thinking out loud here now.
🙂 I hear you. My soul hurts today, too. One of my main comforts is knowing that I get to choose what I believe, based on what brings me connection to God, and that I don’t have to justify that belief to the church or anyone else. On some level, the evidence is irrelevant when it comes to the things that make me feel spiritually connected. But when it comes to believing other people, or the church or whatever, evidence matters very much. I am trying really hard to stay connected to God even when I experience major distrust for so much around me.
