[thalmar]

I share pretty much all of the doubts mentioned in this thread. Yet, on the other hand, I really have a hard time believing that JS could have fabricated the Book of Mormon. The tiny, odd quirks that are included seem so odd as to be realistic, just as a real history would be complex. For example, all the talk about how the Nephite records were kept, and the switch from 1st person to 3rd person, and this set of plates and that set of plates, and the random long chapter about the olive tree allegory that came out of nowhere, just to name a few. The BoM also has a weird randomness to it, combined with a very cohesive narrative. Think of all the different threads woven in there, claiming to be different accounts: the Mulekites coming from Jerusalem, the record of Zeniff and Noah and that whole population, then the side story about Alma fleeing, and the random chapter by Mormon where he talks about finding these other plates and inserting them, and so on.

If I were a literary genius, I imagine myself writing a book that would be less clunky and disjointed. I just can’t imagine someone who has the capability to write the Book of Mormon to write it in the manner that it is written. I would have made it sound better, if that makes sense. Yet, when I say better, I am also saying less complex. The Book of Mormon is complex, and it has the type of complexity I would expect from a real civilization with 1 man who compiles a huge stack of records and picks out pieces here and there to include in his abridgement. I would expect such a compilation to be clunky and disjointed. We are talking about 1000 years of history, picked from tons of records and put into a single book, combined with direct quotes from old records, in some cases.

It seems more plausible to me that it is a genuine record, but that the translation was received through the inspiration of an imperfect mortal mind who had biases and cultural influences (i.e. the King James old English scripture talk style). And that it also contains the quirks and mistakes of the original Nephite authors and biases. I certainly cannot believe at all that the BoM was given to the Nephites undefiled and straight from the mouth of God. I cannot believe that JS translated it in the same undefiled, perfect way. I have come to recognize that all revelation, if it exists, comes through mortal minds and can never represent the flawless word of God. It can only represent the ‘gist’ of what God is trying to say, like playing the telephone game.

Yet, on the other hand, I also realize that it is possible JS was such a genius that he could make the BoM smack of real complex and disjointed historical records, and completely fabricate it from his own mind.

It would be easier for me to accept the BoM as metaphorical with good principles if it wasn’t so literally claimed to be a genuine, real record of a real civilization. But I suppose that if JS stated that it was just spiritual, metaphorical writings meant to bring us all closer to God, the religion may have never got off the ground. It is much more radical and exciting to join a religion that had access to such powerful miracles.

So, I feel conflicted and just don’t know how to view the BoM.

[thalmar]

For myself, as I listen to myself and the fruits of my own experiences, I am coming to believe that there is literal truth and that genuine truth is not relative. However, the experience of truth is different for each individual, because we each have completely unique perspectives. In addition, I view the process of belief, hope, and faith as a process of working toward truth in the long-run, but it is also a process that doesn’t provide any certain truth right now. Right now, in this life, I believe this process doesn’t serve the purpose of giving us all the facts, but is a process that is about refining ourselves through experience. Everyone takes a unique path in this process, but all paths should lead to truth. Yet, the beauty of our unique personalities is that none of us will ever see the exact same thing when we look at truth, just as 5 different people gazing at the same mountain scene will see 5 different things, even though there is technically only 1 mountain.

I don’t remember the quote or which of his writings it came from, but C.S. Lewis described something to the effect that every being created by God becomes a unique expression of God’s glory and personality, because everyone experiences God from their own perspective. Each of us, through our perspectives, personality and choices, can express our experience of God in a unique way. The person who loves astronomy and studies the facts of astronomy through very scientific means is glorifying that aspect of God: that God is a magnificent, ultra intelligent scientist who can organize extremely vast and complex structures based on scientific laws. The person who loves art is expressing the artistic part of God. The mystic is expressing the mysterious aspects of God. And no two artists or scientists or mystics will express or experience these aspects of God in the same way. Thus, God is glorified by every new creation or being, not because more things are worshipping him, but because they become yet one more unique reflection of everything that is God.

I am mostly comfortable now without ever having the option of knowing anything in this life with certainty. But I do have faith that there is truth to be had. The mountain does truly exist, it is not a figment of my imagination. But this life is not the time to know if that mountain really does exist. I choose to believe it is real, but I also choose to trust my perception of it. I trust that my experience of it is unique and ok. I trust that I am allowed to take my own path to the top of it, and that the paths I choose to take are a reflection of my personality. The truth of the mountain exists, but my experience of it is yet perfectly unique. The mountain is not relative truth and my experience of it is shared by no one.

In essence, I am saying that both relative truth and real, unchanging truth both exist simultaneously, and that we often confuse the two. C.S. Lewis also said that questions were made for answers, and that if there are no answers, questions are pointless. I have faith that there will be answers, but I also have faith that the questions, in and of themselves, are important for growth and personal expression.

So my thoughts for you are that you don’t have to lose hope that there are real things to believe in, without having to constrain at all your own personal, ambiguous experiences and growth. It is also okay to not know what the ‘real’ things are with certainty, without losing hope in them.

This all, of course, is just my own experience of reality, and I accept that my experience will continue to grow and change, and that you will never experience the exact same thing as me.

I hope that all made sense.

[thalmar]

Welcome to the forum! I empathize, as I suppose all or most of us do. I certainly waver between different feelings about church, but a lot of my angry feelings have dissipated. I am more left with a desire to do whatever feels right in pursuing faith based on my own experiences, and I also feel a lot of discomfort and close-mindedness when at church. I want to be at church and find upliftment, yet it takes effort now to get that at church. I hope that you continue to find support and ideas here that help you in your journey.

[thalmar]

Thank you to everyone for your support and responses. It is appreciated

[thalmar]

Welcome to the board, though I am newer than you here.

I completely relate to the feeling of mourning. I have been mourning quite a bit. So much of my comfort and guidance and solace came from my involvement in the church. Unfortunately, some of my greatest pains and mental health problems have come from the church as well. I am very much in the midst of this struggle and I am often sad about it. It brings me to tears at times. You are not alone and I am glad you are here.

[thalmar]

I didn’t watch any of conference live. I have been going through my own faith transition and have taken a hiatus from going to church while I figure things out. I am at a place where I am getting ready to go back, though not necessarily every week or all three hours.

I decided to go back and pick through some talks from this GC to watch to start reconnecting, and the first one I chose to watch was JRH’s talk, because I have so often found him to be comforting and connecting and inspiring in past talks.

This talk really threw me for a loop. Talk about the wrong one to first see when dipping my foot back in the pond after a 3-month break. This forum was what got me through the feelings of shame and disconnection I felt afterwards. I still don’t think I have fully recovered from the feeling of “Who am I to think for myself at all…please tell me what to do, sir, so I don’t go to hell.”

I think I will need to start participating in this forum more to work through feelings. I really do want to stay LDS, but I am heading for Stage 5. I am not interested in going back to Stage 3. But I am very interested in contributing to the well being of the world, including the LDS church. If anything, what I have most learned is how important faith and staying connected to God is to me. But I never previously realized just how few things of truth that I actually possess for myself. There is so much information taught as doctrine in the church, but when it comes down to it, all I really know for myself is:

1) There is someone up there that communicates with me and loves me and uplifts me

2) Faith is a real principle that has the power to access divine powers beyond myself

3) There is divinity in the LDS church and I have experienced it

Everything else is up for grabs at this point, and it is an uncomfortable and shameful and exciting journey to work through this. I couldn’t go back to Stage 3 and maintain any integrity with myself…or with my connection to God. I just wish the fear of divine disapproval and loss of eternal blessings wasn’t a recurring feeling that keeps thrusting itself into my consciousness just when I am feeling really happy. It doesn’t help that I have a diagnosed mood disorder and also grew up with a father who was very shameful and taught me to not trust myself, but only trust in unquestionable authority figures…namely, himself and ‘priesthood leaders.’

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