[theuno]

That’s what I get from it. Of course the church teaches that it has to be God’s will too, which complicates the equation, and is part of why I’ve lately started thinking of myself as an agnostic mormon. Can’t really know. I have hope, but not much faith really.

[theuno]

Heber13 wrote:

I don’t like to look at it as more faith leads to more miracles, or the opposite that less faith means miracles are withheld from us…. But that faith helps us shape or recognize the miracles that are happening around us all the time.

That scripture says it is by faith that miracles are wrought.

Definition of wrought:

Quote:

Shaped to fit by or as if by altering the contours of a pliable mass (as by work or effort)

= molded, shaped

≈ formed

In the spirit of Joseph Campbell, I think it can be important for us to tap into the mystical and the myths around us, to preserve our spiritual side and enrich our lives, and let faith mold our experiences so miracles are recognized to inspire us. And not look at miracles as a barometer of spirituality by us or the church collectively. That feels like sign seeking to me.

I look at it in more concrete terms I suppose. If something is wrought, it is shaped, made, created. Not ex nihilo of course, but I don’t think the word wrought has anything to do with perception. I think it is a simple equation, in the absence of faith there will be no, or perhaps very few, miracles.

As far as sign seeking goes? That’s something that scripturally has always confused me. We talk about it as though it’s bad, yet the scriptures are full of signs to look for. What makes it worse for me is that I’m pretty science minded. The chapter of scripture that makes the most sense to me is Alma 32. It’s an experiment. Do this and this should happen. Test the hypothesis, etc. So what’s wrong with seeking concrete evidence?

[theuno]

Here’s my thoughts on the topic. I would guess that the pure truth distilled directly into your mind, to paraphrase Joseph Smith, may be the purest and most direct kind of revelation. That said, that kind of revelation doesn’t help much outside of the person who actually received it.

True enough, there are only a precious few times that the Father has revealed himself at all. If anything, I think that Ray may have over-counted as I think that the example of the brother of Jared was actually Jehovah, thus it would be an example of a manifestation of Christ and not the Father. That leaves us with Adam, Christs baptism (no not a face to face meeting, but he definitely revealed himself), to the Nephites before the resurrected Christ appeared, and to Joseph Smith in the sacred grove.

That said, I think that there is a natural scale in the scriptures – very few manifestations of the Father, more of the Son, and there are Angels all over the place in the scriptures. Manifestations of the Holy Ghost are similar – A few pentecostal type manifestations, a few more gifts of the spirit, and then come the inspirations and promptings.

Understandably, we aren’t privy to all the revelation our leaders receive. I would think however, that we might have heard about an angelic visitation or 2 in the modern age. The last time I can think of a church leader claiming an angelic visitation was when Wilford Woodruff was explaining why we needed to end the practice of plural marriage. The last time a revelation was shared from a dream was Joseph F. Smith’s revelation on the redeeming of the dead.

I admit my faith is running rather low, but is the faith of the whole church as low as mine?

Quote:

Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

-Moroni 7:37

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