[Thoreau]

mercyngrace,

Thank you for those thoughts on forgiveness. I needed them. I asked a GA about forgiveness and all I got was a scripture quote and maybe I should to talk to my priesthood leader. Your thoughts are the answer I was looking for.

[Thoreau]

Brian Johnston wrote:

“Mormon Doctrine” is an encyclopedia of Bruce R. McConkie’s personal beliefs (at the time it was published). Because of the title of the book, and the fact that the author was a general authority, many assumed it spoke officially of Mormon doctrine.

I suppose it did speak for a view of a large majority of Mormons from the 1950’s and 1960’s. Many dramatic changes have taken place since that time, so it is quite out of date (even offensive at times by modern standards).

And into the 70s and 80s. I have a copy of it that I bought in the late 70s or early 80s. It became known in some circles as the Gospel According to McConkie. It is a one volume book and I think the Encyclopedia of Mormonism is many volumes.

[Thoreau]

Roy wrote:

Thoreau wrote:

To me Mormonism seems to be based entirely on faith while the rest of Christianity has physical evidence.

I assume you are referring to the actual historical record on Jesus, his disciples, and the overall history of the nation of Israel vs. the possibility of the characters in the BOM not having been historical. I can see your point. OTOH there is ample physical evidence that JS actually lived, but the question of whether one accepts him as a prophet is still largely a question of faith.

I think you got what I was trying to say. The existence of the Book of Mormon is based solely on faith.

[Thoreau]

True, we don’t have the original text but we do have things like the Dead Sea Scrolls and the chain of translations (someone help me here) from the ancient texts to the King James and other versions of the Bible.

With the Book of Mormon we only have one source document and it is gone.

[Thoreau]

Brown wrote:

I know this gets asked by skeptics all the time, but I was thinking it the other day. Really, what would be so hard about just having the Gold plates on display down at temple square. Wouldn’t that lend a LOT of credibility to our religion? I know the story is that Mormon took them home, but that doesn’t make any sense to me. What would be the purpose of hiding a key component of our religion from all of us? We can already see the paper translations, so why not the original?

The first time I was investigating the LDS church back in the late 70s (the second time is now) I asked the missionaries pretty much the same thing, are the plates in Salt Lake City now? I was told that they were taken back to heaven. I think my response was oh, OK. I still joined the church but didn’t really believe something physical would be taken to a different place by means unknown to me. That must have been the first thing I put on the shelf to deal with later. To me Mormonism seems to be based entirely on faith while the rest of Christianity has physical evidence. We have no scriptual fragments unless you want to count the Book of Abraham which is hidden up and doesn’t seem to contain the part that Joseph Smith “translated”. We have no archaeoligical evidence. All we have are some statements by “witnesses”, just like testimonials for the latest wonder product.

Why not have the plates available? Warning cynicism or even sarcasm alert. Then the world would see that “Reformed Egyptian” is a fake language. The plates don’t exist. Shoot, this is what I’ve been trying to avoid; the all or nothing, the black or white. The church is true or it isn’t.

I agree, the scientist in me wants evidence.

[Thoreau]

I think what Katzpur just told us is more common than than any of us, especially the leaders, want to believe.

[Thoreau]

I’ve been watching this thread and have been trying to formulate a coherent post but it just isn’t coming fast enough with the way the thread has moved so I’ll just jump in.

I think the Law of Chastity as defined in the Temple Endowment is the standard. As such I have no problem with it but then I have been married 36 years and am no longer a young man with raging hormones. If I was a young unmarried man with raging hormones and looking for a wife I might feel differently about it.

Where I disagree is how the Law of Chastity is taught, it is not taught the same across the LDS Church. Look at For the Strength of Youth, Principles of the Gospel, the various “garbage” that is taught at the BYUs, especially what I saw about Ricks (probably on NOM). No sexual intercourse except within marriage, OK, but no passionate kissing, lying next to each other, no back rubs, the big M, etc. I feel that the LDS Church has produced and continues to produce sexually immature and dysfunctional people, often resulting in bad situations such as incompatibilty at the best and probably abuse at the worse.

[Thoreau]

I think the question about tithing is along the lines of “Are you a full tithe payer?” It isn’t have you paid a full tithe on all your increase up to today’s date?

Members and leaders need to realize this. I know quite a few members pay tithing once a year, at the end of the year. It doesn’t keep them out of the temple if their recommend interview comes before the yearly payment.

[Thoreau]

Very nice. It sounds like it was a very uplifting day.

[Thoreau]

I can’t argue the points you made. On one hand we are told we have everything we need, on the other hand we are told there are more things. I guess this just further serves to illustrate the “problems” so many of us have with the LDS church.

[Thoreau]

Gasp. 😮

[Thoreau]

If I may resurrect this thread. It might benefit some of us newer members.

I am/was ISTP with some very strong conflict between types. I will go back and retake some of the tests and give an update.

Came out INFJ this time.

Introverted Intuitive Feeling Judging

Strength of the preferences %

72 12 12 17

And ISFP

Introverted (I) 69.7% Extroverted (E) 30.3%

Sensing (S) 50% Intuitive (N) 50%

Feeling (F) 55.88% Thinking (T) 44.12%

Perceiving (P) 51.16% Judging (J) 48.84%

See, I’m just a mess.

[Thoreau]

Cadence wrote:

I Posted this at NOM. Interesting to see what the StayLDS’ers have to say.

After enduring our latest HP lesson it is confirmed to me the church is dying. They handed out a the new little booklet on the family. Then proceeded to discuss how to give blessings, do ordinances, conduct family home evening, etc, etc. The whole jist of the lesson was not on the meaning of any of this but that they were done exactly right, that the proper words were used, that you were dressed appropriately, that no sinners were allowed to participate. So very little substance and so many rules.

I believe because there is so precious little revelation or new doctrine coming from on high the leaders tend to turn to more stringent rules as a sign of progression in the church. When rules replace religion I am afraid inspiration and creativity cease. When the procedure of giving a blessing is more important than what is said I think we are lost. When wearing a white shirt is a sign of your purity with little thought of what you are on the inside determines your position in the church, what hope is there.

I am not going to say the church is all bad. I find many aspects good that I like participating in. I also know I am nit picking to some degree here. But as far as a religion goes the church is withering on the vine. Opinion unless correlated is discouraged. Thought outside of the box is scary. Like I said I think this is inevitable of a church that claims so much and produces so little in the way revelation. Thinking of conference it was just platitudes and shallow promises by being obedient. We are living in the past with nothing of substance happening here and now. We are retreading everything we have and tightening the screws on creativity. It seems we are on a path to irrelevancy and mediocrity. It makes me sad.

_________________

Despite my appearance on these forums I am one of those that are torn and tossed to and fro. I chafe at the rules yet I also bring them up when they aren’t being observed. I nit pick, maybe because by nit picking I can satisfy the desire to say something and can stay away from the big things that might get me in trouble. An example, the handbook says we don’t need to have the flag on the stand. I consider myself very patriotic but I am not a flag waver. I don’t have a problem with the flag on the stand except that it is kind of against the rules. I brought it up, pointed out in the handbook where it is addresse, and the branch presidency said it would be taken care of. The flag is still up but I’m not going to persue the matter any farther.

I see it very common for ordinances to be performed by the power of the priesthood. The instructions are pretty specific about this, they are done by the authority. I have seen members of the stake presidency do this. I mention it all the time but it is so ingrained that it never sinks in. The most recent example of something not being stated correctly was during a confirmation. I don’t remember the specifics but I pointed it out to the branch president after it was done and over. Is it a big deal? I don’t know. The Lord’s house is supposed to be a house of order. Is the ordinance invalid because the rules weren’t followed? I don’t think so.

As far as new revelation and doctrine. I don’t think we need any at this time. Supposedly we have been given every thing we need to know to return to our Heavenly Father. Well, maybe we do need new revelation to do away with the old stuff that just wasn’t true.

Just my thoughts.

[Thoreau]

Thank you all for your kind welcomes.

I’m just a regular guy trying to make sense of it all. I have lots of opinions, some good some bad. I’m not much of a deep thinker at this point, I’m just trying to find the simple truth of the Gospel and how to live it without all the guilt I’m feeling.

I’m not very verbose, I’m usually short and to the point. I expect everyone to be able to read my mind . And I feel like I’m rambling and can’t end this post.

[Author]

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