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It would be a great opportunity to get official answers for questions that the apologists struggle with. You could ask on the behalf of friends (us) that are really struggling with some of these things. Just because you can’t live with her doesn’t mean that seeing her on Sundays would be bad. My friend divorced his wife, and did what you are considering, he moved close to his wife and went to church with her so he could see his kids more often. He and his ex became good friends again. It improved their relationship to a point where they could work together closely for the benefit of their kids. It gave her an opportunity to say, “I need to go to the doctor on Wednesday. Can you watch the kids?” Etc… It was good for everybody involved. The kids were the biggest winners. Concerning the ward members: You are a father that is doing his best to fulfill his responsibilities to his children. Nothing more. You love your kids and want to be around them and to be available to them as much as possible. A very admirable, selfless, and noble objective. Hold your head up, smile, and go to ward functions if you feel like it.
Here’s another secret… you can attend any ward you want to for as long as you want to regardless of where you live. If they don’t move your records, great! No callings.
Getting divorce causes a lot more pain than you think. To you, your husband, and your kids. Not to mention the financial devastation. This is language that is part of oir Mormon culture. How about: “Please manifest it”
“Even” as an interjection. “I say these thing in the name of the Lord, even Jesus Christ.”
“Nourish and strengthen our bodies”
“Travel home in safety, that no harm or accident may befall them.”
etc.
Born – agains do similar things. If you hear them pray they use the words, “Oh God” and “just” a million times. “We just want to thank you, Oh God, for everything you’ve given us. Oh God.”
DarkJedi wrote:FAIRMormon:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_racial_issues/Blacks_and_the_priesthood/Statements ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_racial_issues/Blacks_and_the_priesthood/Statements
The 1949 statement by the first presidency is a pretty descriptive piece. It states that it was doctrine not policy, and it gives reasons for that doctrine. It is disingenuous to say “we don’t know why those doctrines were in place” when the living prophets at the time explained why quite clearly.The story of Kate Kelly’s excommunication made lots of national news outlets: http://abcnews.go.com/US/mormon-church-%20…%20d=24264440 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://abcnews.go.com/US/mormon-church-%20…%20d=24264440 http://fox13now.com/2014/06/22/vigil-su%20…%20y-council/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://fox13now.com/2014/06/22/vigil-su%20…%20y-council/ http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mor%20…%20ed-n138746 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mor%20…%20ed-n138746 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/us/Ka%20…%20under.html ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/us/Ka%20…%20under.html Plus lots of local news…
If there is no room in this church for critical thinking or for people who love those who are different from themselves or who think differently from themselves, then there is no room for me. You could use the scriptures from the story of Job. When he is going through this horrible experience and his heart must have been aching, what do his real friends do? They go and sit with him in silence without judging him or criticizing him. Nothing they say will make it better. So they just support him by just being there. Can you choose to believe in Santa Clause again? Maybe, if you act like you believe and hang out with people who constantly affirm their faith in Santa and you work together as a group and use your excitement about Santa as the glue that holds your social group together such that being a part of the group, that brings you happiness, is contingent on your beliefs. Then your pre-cognitive desires will push you to accept and look forward to Santa coming each Christmas. But you will always know the truth in the back of your mind. I asked myself this question a lot while I was on my mission. If I was on the other side, would I accept the gospel and be baptized? My answer was usually no. I don’t think I would. This points to the fact that my membership and continued affiliation with the church is 100% about my family, friends, and social connections and very little to do with the doctrine. The church is my tribe. I try to be a Mormon because I don’t want to get kicked out of my tribe. This is a pre-cognitive thought or emotion bred into us by evolution. Getting kicked out of the tribe is end of the line for me and my genetics. We can’t help but be extremely anxious about doing things that would cause us to loose our status or position in our tribe. This is why most ex-mos never fit in well to begin with and thus may find it easier to leave, and I would wager that most of those on this forum who are struggling to stay in, including me, fit into the Mormon tribe well.
I have an Iranian student who told me once that if he found more good and truth in Christianity than he found in Islam, that he would convert to Christianity and I called BS. There would be way too many social consequences, and even potential physical harm for him to do this and he could never give Christianity an unbiased evaluation. I admit that I have not given Islam an unbiased evaluation even though they outnumber Mormons like 300 to 1.
Long answer to the question, but no I wouldn’t join the church as an outsider. I’m afraid to pay the social consequences of leaving now. I certainly wouldn’t be willing to pay high social consequences to get in.
I’m convinced the emotions come from people’s desire to fit in and from their nervousness about social acceptance and that the social vulnerability of testimony bearing helps make people cry. Give the testimony to the mirror, no emotions. Get in front of a group of people that you are very uncomfortable about your status in this group and talk about personal things that make you vulnerable = emotional response. This is not the only factor to making people cry, but I’m sure it certainly contributes. I loved my mission. I used to have dreams of returning to Korea as a missionary and I would wake up happy. Now I couldn’t do it. I’m conflicted about whether my kids should go or not. I think I would prefer that they find another way to serve God’s children than be a salesman for one of the very many religions that God appears to be supportive of. Old-Timer wrote:Quote:What many people don’t understand is the questions about doctrine and history that are pushed on us by the critics are virtually all red herrings and straw men.
No, they aren’t. I can disagree with interpretations of just about anything, but the questions themselves usually are not red herrings and straw men – and many who struggle with them are sincere, good, faithful, active, loving, intelligent, dedicated members.
Thank you Ray. Thank you for caring about us and acknowledging the pain and struggle we have trying to find both truth and peace.
