[Tim]

On newordermormon.org they have these rules for disengagement that you should take seriously… http://newordermormon.org/rules-of-disengagement.php” class=”bbcode_url”>http://newordermormon.org/rules-of-disengagement.php

I completely sympathize with you. I haven’t found what I consider to be good answers. It comes down to whether you want to believe or not. You have it doubly difficulty because your wife is leaving you. Your world got rocked hard… twice. However, if you leave the church now it will give her ammunition to disparage you with. “See, I did the right thing. He’s not a good person. He doesn’t even believe the church is true any more.”

Although I don’t think the church is true anymore either, I would advise you to think through to the consequences of just jumping out, before you do so. There are very good and loving people in the church. Your friends and relatives in the church may be a great support for you in an obviously very trying time of your life and you risk losing them as well if you leave now and that would leave you completely alone. Don’t start sinking your sorrows in alcohol and other women just yet… Singing hymns actually brings me peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwFHsX6omvI” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwFHsX6omvI

Wish I could come hang out with you and do something to ease your pain.

[Tim]

I do not regret my mission. However, missions are not easy. It would be especially difficult if you doubt that what you are doing is worthwhile. It is a bad place to try to gain a testimony.

I think that all young men need to go through some sort of an experience where they go grow up, become a man, broaden their horizons, figure out who they are, serve a bigger cause than themselves, and decide what they want to do with their lives. Going on a mission, or serving in the peace corp, or even in the military are some ways to do this.

Think through what makes you happy, and what you need to do to be happy in the long run.

[Tim]

You have a great wife. Make sure she knows you love her and remain committed to her and your kids. Be honest and open with her about your sense of loss. Other than that I don’t know what to tell you since I don’t have any answers either. I wish it was clear to me. I don’t think the church is true, but I think it is good. It provides real benefits to me (mostly social and community for me) and for my kids. I’ve just got to work on my attitude while at church. I can still love and serve the people there, which helps my life have meaning.

[Tim]

Since Joseph translated without referring to the plates anyway, I guess all of the language wouldn’t have to fit. I’d be happy to send it to whomever wants to PM an email address to me.

[Tim]

mackay11 wrote:

Bold mine… where do you get that from? Given ancient scripts would often have 1 character per word (not 1 character per letter) you can say a lot more with a little space. E.g. on the Chinese version of Twitter (weibo) you still only get 140 characters… but that’s a whole paragraph of text. Where does he describe the size of the plates which people interpret to be too small?

I’ve actually done a study on this by looking at how much space various language translations (including Chinese, Greek, Hebrew, and even Ancient Egyptian) of the same sections of the Old Testament took (used the Rosetta Stone for Ancient Egyptian) and fit it onto a 6″ x 8″ MS Word Document, compared the “compression ratio” of one language to the other along with the smallest “scribable” english font to compare how many words could fit. The plates were described by Joseph and other witnesses as about 6″ x 8″ x 6″ thick and weighing between 40 and 60 lbs. 2/3rds of the stack was sealed, and of the unsealed portion 116 pages were lost. Based on this there is a good article done by a SHIELD author here: http://www.shields-research.org/Scriptures/BoM/Tumbaga.htm that estimates that there were about 40-50 plates or if they could use both sides, then up to 100 sides to use. Then subtracting for the 116 lost pages and doing the math, all the language just can’t fit without being written impossibly small, or the plates being much larger than described. I’ve written it up if you are interested.

[Tim]

For me there are just too many questionable things that point to the fact that Joseph didn’t have gold plates. (That much language couldn’t fit on the described plates, didn’t refer to them during translation, etc..). I’m trying to figure this out myself, but maybe what we can do is to think of it as if we were studying the Koran or the teachings of Confucius, Buddha, or any other self-help book. It doesn’t matter if they are “true”. What can I learn from them to improve my life? I can pick out things that will help me, and ignore what doesn’t.

[Tim]

I listened to all three hours and my take is: John is a sincere, yet still a confused and conflicted individual, just like me. His message to not neglect the emotional nature of ourselves is important. Religion fills needs in my life regardless of how much I wish I didn’t have those needs. I may be doomed to a life of either continued cognitive dissonance, or unfilled needs for spiritual an emotional belonging and community.

[Tim]

If not for sex, why did he marry them? If for their eternal progression and salvation, why aren’t we doing it today? Did God change his mind?

[Tim]

Galileo, your words are like they came from my own mouth. I have the same issues, background, and have come to the same conclusions. It’s good to have brothers in the same boat.

[Author]

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