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Tom Haws wrote:
Please parse the words. Those things are not apostasy. They lead to apostasy. Please return with a definition of the apostasy that results from those things.
thought I did … see subsequent post quoting the same talk linked
Sometimes I pray like this: Get real comfortable, (i.e. pillows for knees if you feel to kneel etc.). Speak the Lord’s Prayer vocally, and then just listen for the next 20 minutes or so.
Speaking vocally from time to time as you might feel to questions, or thank etc. but mostly listening.
For me, the “still small voice” comes as thoughts, and quieting down my mind and focusing on the separation/discernment of those thoughts is key. I assume that audible prayer helped in the separation. Don’t get in a hurry.
Quote:“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Would not this concept apply?
Of course this is well off the beaten path of a dictionary type definition, but more of the one instilled into some of us by our upbringing.
from the talk: “There is a superior intelligence bestowed upon such as obey the Gospel with full purpose of heart, which, if sinned against, the apostate is left naked and destitute of the Spirit of God, and he is, in truth, nigh unto cursing, and his end is to be burned. When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened, and then, no marvel, if all their power should be enlisted against the truth, and they, Judas-like, seek the destruction of those who were their greatest benefactors.”
1. criticize leaders
2. lose the light.
3. become son/daughter of Satan.
Just that easy.
The LDS definition of apostasy seems to differ from those suggested here: “Losing confidence in Church leaders, criticizing them, and neglecting any duty required by God lead to apostasy.”
Here is how to avoid the nasty bitter fruit:
http://lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-smith/chapter-27-beware-the-bitter-fruits-of-apostasy?lang=eng&query=Road+apostasy ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-smith/chapter-27-beware-the-bitter-fruits-of-apostasy?lang=eng&query=Road+apostasy mercyngrace wrote:I don’t know what I am, timpanogos, but I know what I believe. And sometimes they even teach it in church. Haha!
good one!
I love you m&g! Thank you for all that you do to uplift others. You are successful in this and often a god send.
mercyngrace wrote:Brian Johnston wrote:I’m a
HERETICnot an apostate. Sheeesh! They need to get their pejoratives correct 🙄 get it right…Oddly enough, I have on occasion been called a heretic, an apostate, and even “an enemy of Christ” for teaching nothing more or less than what has been taught by church presidents, general authorities, the standard works and the temple drama.
I think I’m 100% orthodox. It’s the rest of the church who’ve gone astray.
😆 And now … drum roll … M&G – is definately “uncorrelated”!
There add that one to your list
Sorry M&G … your old school orthodox/uncorrelated … if that’s not the same thing??
well there you go, that right there is enough to start looking for a new avatar! I’m glad for you, for this kind response.
I hope your brother and you get that minute together that he mentioned!
cwald wrote:Brian Johnston wrote:Cwald, I so very much admire how you have been handling all this. The level of focus, resolve
and calm I feel from your postsis inspiring. You are a great example.. apparently you haven’t’ read the letter over at NOM that I sent my brothers.
😳 all things considered .. it seemed pretty honest and mild. I’d love to hear their responses, if any
Heber13 wrote:Let’s stay supportive for cwald here. My heart goes out to you cwald, because I’m sure it is painful and scary and makes you mad. But, from my point of view, this could blow over once people get the right info from you.
My biggest question is: What are they afraid of that makes them so concerned about you and your situation?(Should you ask them that directly?) Agreed. See if it’s not about JD’s suggested new “Reformed Judaism”.
I can see where the SP’s mentioned that are very close to this situation (Logan and brothers stake) could have left a big concern with cwalds SP over a new Middle way church.
Distance yourself from that suggested “society” (or whatever you want to call it) and you’re likely good to go.
It sounds like the tragic part of this story is that your “situation” has been brought to the attention of the SP in regards to tithing and the church position that you currently hold.
Do I understand it that you are in the EQ presidency and the latest/new CHI reads that only full tithe payers can hold leadership positions?
I believe the “discipline” worries will quickly blow over, but removing you from a currently position in light of this is what I really feel bad about, not only for you but for the Church.
Hard, very hard choices, with deep impact into likely the second most important thing to the church … the family.
I too have of late been very interested in the JD situation: trail blazer brings hard choices to churchJD – court of love?It’s quite clear to me that for many years now that the church has silently support JD’s “stay LDS” ways. However JD’s recent news that he is no longer active, and his recent symposium in NYC is likely bringing the Church to some harder choices of how they are going to deal with a rapidly growing no-win situation.
I seriously doubt that the church has any interest in shutting down that likes of this board or bothering any of its members. In fact an even more inflammatory title now than “Middle way “ would likely be “I’m an Uncorrelated Mormon”.
John raised the bar by suggesting a group/society or whatever – loosely termed/related to “Reformed Judaism” (i.e. I’d call it very cultural and universalistic in nature).
Anyway if you have not listened to and looked at the power point, you should:
Exploring the Future for Uncorrelated MormonsI assume the church is on a close watch to see how this develops. One thing to note in JD’s oral presentation linked above, he notes that someone very high up, whom he could not disclose, related that the church currently has an 18% activity rate, and it was suggested that is based on once a month attendance.
As some of John’s last slides point out, as the following generations go forward, you or someone you know is going to be an “uncorrelated Mormon” and there is little to nothing that the Church can do about it.
It will be interesting to see if, over time, the church tends back to a smaller, tight niche group of “correlated” believers and physically isolates themselves from the more universalistic/liberal/uncorrelated individuals.
Oh wait, 18%, maybe they are already there?
cwald wrote:I have just recently used the term “Middle Way” with my family (which is composed of of bishop counselors, HC and even a SP) in those recent emails and phone calls, just a couple of weeks ago — AND NOW THEY THINK I AM “SATANIC AND GAY.” I posted one of those emails in a thread on here I think. I had more than one brother specifically call me out on the whole middle way comments I made as an “apostate teaching.” OMG – somebody in my family has been in contact with my SP. This is unbelievable.
Courts of Love, Families of Love … good possibility that some one close is reaching out to help you. Ah its so good to be loved.
Roadlesstraveled wrote:I had my nice checklist that made me think everything was under control and I was doing what was right and setting the best example for them. Now, that is gone, and I don’t know how to give security to my children without the church, and at the same time, I know I don’t want to use a lot of what I was taught at church in my teaching them.
Maybe think of it like home schooling a child. Sure it’s scary, at first, to wonder if you can provide a curriculum that will match that of the school system, that your child might not fall behind.
As with home schooling, I’ve seen disastrous ones, where the “list” (curriculum) was poor and the results horrible. And yet on the other hand, have seen exceptional ones where the list/curriculums were well planned and super exceptional results were seen.
I’ve afraid you may need to just grow some tough skin for mom’s actions (which are not likely soon to end), and get back to focusing on that “list” You can provide the needed curriculum if you choose, and it can and will excel.
Now get busy on the list.
I tried to crack some humor in the Myers-Briggs/Jung type thread, but upon actually taking a couple of the tests I find it true that some personalities might naturally be very good at staying to help others along, and that others might more naturally fly free. Somewhere else in this forum I also noted (I believe It was ray) an analogy to settlers and explorers which was very good. Naturally I’m an explorer. That’s my strength. In life, I’ve found that my greatest strengths are also my greatest weaknesses, as even in these Myers-Briggs deals, we are talking about opposites, neither of which are negative, but are strengths.
If only I could overcome my greatest weakness (my strength), which keeps me from going back, maybe I could have some hope of personally growing in my greatest weakness (which would be the ability to lay aside my greatest strengths).
My natural desire is to help by fixing. Oh how I wish my natural desire was to help by loving, with no thought of the church, the inc, the brethren, the lessons etc. but only for those in my ward, only about them.
This is why I really hate ray’s post.
I really don’t need to go back for them, I need to go back for me
