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Old-Timer wrote:
timpanogas, I don’t know if it will help at all, but I just went back and re-read the post on my personal blog- then added an important postscript.
Still hate it (nothing in your postscript clears me).
I suppose I should have been a bit clearer, I only hated it because I could find no fault in it, and it condemns me. It was the spirit and this concept that brought me back, for a time, this past year. Just cannot seem to deal with the correlated gospel and where I fear LDS.inc is at.
Old-Timer wrote:
I posted something on my personal blog yesterday, ironically, that applies directly to the situation in which you have found yourself and my own philosophy when it comes to these things. It was not written with this post and thread in mind; in fact, I scheduled it to be published over a year ago – so the timing is kind of eerie. In essence, as it relates to this comment, it says that those who become self-sufficient in this manner (who begin to catch sight of the celestial foundation underlying the terrestrial doctrines) have an obligation to “give back” to the organization that enabled them to become who they became – or contribute to the stagnation of that organization by leaving.
I hate your blog entry and this last quote and the jist of this post.
I had a similar discussion with a TBM HP recently (a convert of many years – very correlated). The discussion led to the New Jerusalem and the Millennial Reign (a paradisiacal existence). At first I was shocked by his very firm and matter of fact stance and have been reflecting on it since. I was trying to point out that the ecclesiastical leaders and church would not exists in the New Jerusalem, that the church would be gone, and that the only requirement for entry into the city/community would be for their knee to bow and tongue confess, that Jesus is the Christ.
His response: “Well sure, but they will NOT be on the same level as us”. Of course he is thinking of the three degrees of glory, or at best the 3 divisions of the Celestial glory, as well as the temple ordinances as referred to in this thread. I argued that no, based on the cleansings of the 7 trumps that everyone in that city would be at the same level and in the same place.
My later reflections brought to mind this seeming conflict that New Jerusalem teachings do tend to be Universalist with basically two divisions: those that are in and those that got toasted (it’s heaven or hell, with no religious boundaries and the basic most requirement). I suppose it’s pretty clear that the Telestial members of humanity meet those trumps with much dismay, but what of our Terrestrial sisters and brothers? I suppose that after they get toasted and spend some amount of time in hell, they are off to their moons, as it were (i.e. Earth ends up sea of glass on transition from paradisiacal to Celestial). OR do some of these find their way to the city as well??
Listening to Damon Smith’s Mormon stories tapes was a total epiphany for me (last year or so). The basic reasons for my apostasy became clear. As you will be able to tell from just a post or two from me today, I come from a very uncorrelated experience. For example the person in this thread speaking about the Waco wasted year of the person relating what Calling and Election meant, would be me if they allowed it. (sure there is a second anointing ordinance, which involves the washing of feet that is done in the temple, but the true calling and election can only can in done in as It sounds like was taught that wasted year – who is it with the pink floyd album cover icon – “wish you were here”).
I noted that the thread brought out some important aspects of the church’s need to separate itself from the fundamentalist and listed that as correlation. Damon Smith’s work was a two part deal – evolution of the manifesto and then correlation. I believe true correction, as we know it today, did not start until the late 70’s to mid 80’s (sorry bad memory).
The interesting part to me is that a type of correction started big time with Joseph Fielding Smith (my hero BH Roberts era) as he started the slow but sure steering the church in its doctrines, starting with the removal of the Lectures on Faith from the D&C. This lead to a few generations of indoctrination changes that led to the likes of what some of us used to negatively refer to as “The Gospel according to Bruce” (i.e. Mormon Doctrine).
Of course the large majority of members at that time (60’s-80’s). Totally embraced Mormon Doctrine, this was the bible of Mormon theology to them.
Of course anyone that had actually read much pre JFS, or BHR, would be some of the very first members to understand the concept of “shelving” those nasty cog dis episodes.
This last year marks a significant event in this history of correlation, with the retirement of “Mormon Doctrine”. It has now successfully been correlated out of even its elements of extremism, which was authorized and common, over the pulpit material throughout my active experience.
Well, anyway, sorry for another wall of text … but indeed it seems the church can remain the only true church on the face of the earth and yet undergo major doctrinal changes in the course of a hundred years or so.
I miss those old waco’s. oh wait, I am one of those old wacos.
Hawkgrrrl, It appears you have expertise in these tests, and so I’m asking you for some advice:
I took one of this tests today and the final report indicated that my type is:
PSYCO
Now, I’m not quite sure of what all these letters mean yet, but want concerns me was the flashing red box that indicated that I should call the given number ASAP.
Does everyone get that flashing box? I’m always leery of internet adds and such. Should I just ignore the message or do you think I should call??
Roy, Good point. Even I have often preached that the endowment was not something that was simply given the day you went through for yourself, but was achieved over the long haul of trying to obtain the promises of the Oath and Covenant for one’s self.
Thinking about this, I can see this is part of my problem. I felt I had failed in any hope of obtaining the promise for myself, and yet somehow feel angered in not seeing/feeling that even they may not have achieved it.
Put in another way (more positive light) … They are/were/should be a candle set upon the hill side, for all to see, as an example and guide, saying “come this way!. I’ve seen him, I’m his witness, as can you also be.”
The unfortunate thing about the (realistic) voting I’ve seen in this thread, is that at the same time as our expectations of a prophet in this manner has been downplayed, so have the teachings of one striving for their own calling and election.
And yet again, that’s what messed a lot of my generation up I suppose, so maybe it’s for the best, who knows.
cwald wrote:if I leave, who in the branch is going to follow me?
With that frumpy, unhappy look … not many!
(lol avitar)
SilentDawning wrote:You seem to epitomize Stage 5 thinking which is an enviable position. I hope my personal Articles of Faith might help me get there. I’ve had some spurts and starts over the last year and can’t seem to get going for the long-term like you have.
Ah don’t fret about M&G, They never taught you that one of the three Nephite’s a woman.
Here is another thought. As an old friend used to teach me, the church is a construction set. It is temporary; It is Aaronic in nature and purpose (to cry repentance and to provide a path to the Inner Church). Remember that all through the Reign of the Kings, there was not a Church, but only the Holy Order (Kings, Priests, and a community of Patriarchal families).
As a vehicle, the church will someday rust, and break down. I suppose our hopes lie in if the vehicle has brought us close enough to our desired destination to continue there from on foot.
mercyngrace wrote:
Well, in theory anyone with a testimony of Jesus Christ should be able to bear a “prophetic witness”. (Revelations 19:10)
Of course in the case of M&G that would be a Prophetess witness
(rockslider)
Yes (used to) Yes (still do)
No (still don’t)
Do I feel foolish or what?
Well into my forties, I not only believed, but fully expected that all of the 12 had been personally administered to by Jesus Christ (i.e. true second anointing). It was a full reading of the History of the Church that first converted me to a desire to seeking the Face of God.
Go look here for a good read:
http://byustudies2.byu.edu/hc/hcpgs/hc.aspxhttp://byustudies2.byu.edu/hc/hcpgs/hc.aspx” class=”bbcode_url”> See – Volume Two, Chapter 13 Part 1 – General Charge to the Twelve. (the first twelve in this despensation).
Towards the bottom of page 196 note:
“You have been indebted to other men, in the first instance, for evidence; on that you have acted; but it is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God. That is more than the testimony of an angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God, this testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out; although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will therefore see the necessity of getting this testimony from heaven.
Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off you doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days?”
But then again, I was also foolish enough to fully believe and, based on faithfulness expect the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood to be available to all that sought:
19And this greater apriesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the bkey of the cmysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the dknowledge of God.
20Therefore, in the aordinances thereof, the power of bgodliness is manifest.
21And without the ordinances thereof, and the aauthority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is bnot manifest unto men in the flesh;
22For without this no aman can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.
John has my deep felt appreciation. Yes, I fully understand the cycling, the ebb and flow of the spirit, the pain and questions of a deeply embedded indocternation as well as a lifetime of experience in that which is bitter and that which is sweet. My thoughts and prayers are with John at this time. (I think the meeting is tonight)
(rockslider)
edit: I double check the postmormon thread I based that on, and it does look like the meeting was last night
I got two tickets and parking pass to the sunday afternoon session. Hoping to feel the spirit first hand
I need to get back here and do some posting. Just a quick update … After many years, the heavens again opened and I’ve had some wonderful experiences. I’ve been back to church the last 3 weeks now.
Chad
Bridget_Night, Stan James. For some reason he took me in and shared things with me. He had worked for over 20 years in the Provo Temple when I first started their and meet him.
There was an unusual story … I don’t know the whole of it, but 3 books with 20,000 names in each book where found under a bridge. Somehow Stan got one of these books. The names were of Jewish Holocaust victims.
Stan spearheaded the work in the Provo temple doing these names for several years. Everyone at the temple was involved in the work to one extent or another. After the 20k were complete he started in on the parents of these names. I’m a computer software programmer and had done a fair amount of “Temple Ready” for my own family and so knew the programs provided by the church to do this at the time. Their process was horribly slow and so I wrote a program to do the “Temple Readies” for Stan in a much faster/automated way. We did this for a long time.
Then the stink came about, the Jewish community had found out about the work and were in an uproar. The Provo Temple shut Stan down from doing any more. Out of the 40,000 parent names, we only had about 2000 names left to do. Stan asked me to temple ready the remaining names and send them off to other temples to be done, and I did.
A week later, a big article in the Sunday paper announced the big outrage and the Church’s new policy. I’d just sent out 2000 names, split up to many temples the week before. I felt guilty and took my disks, paper tail, etc in a bag up to the Church Office building. I handed the bag, and a note to the guard at the bottom of the steps in the building where the GA’s hang out, and said “I’m sure someone is going to want to talk to me about this, I’ll be over in the lobby of the main building”.
Well, sure enough, they wanted to talk to me … but back to your comment.
I’m one that did have good experiences at the temple. I had some great experiences doing work for my own family as well as the Holocaust victims over all those years. I also had good experiences seeking and trying to learn personal revelation. The Temple was always a safe, quite, special place for me.
I remember my first time. I had gone through a repentance process for over 1 year to be able to marry my wife in the Temple. At the time, there were not Temple classes and I had NO clue what was ahead for me. My Bishop came with me, but I had no one else there, except my wife, whom I knew. I had done a lot of bad things in my youth. Going blindly into the initiatory, I remember the tears that flowed, as I realized the concept that God loves me and has provided a way for me to become clean, that I really could turn from the old and start anew.
I suppose it was this very first experience, that set the tone of it for me. I wish I had some words of comfort for your sense of fear. I know that there is much there that could easily be viewed as strange and scary. With all of my doubts and problems … I truly do not believe there is anything sinister about it. It is all meant to uplift.
Even after all of these years of inactivity, my wife continues to go. I would never discourage her, or anyone else from going.
Is there any particular things about it I could address for you? I would be glad to address them in private if I can help?
