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Alma 32:21And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.
This is the softer/gentler definition we are used to hearing. In some ways it’s almost a contradiction of the industrial strength version I’ve referenced previously.
Maybe we need a new thread titled WTFlip is hope?
From time to time, there are people that do something extremely strange based on the exercise of faith as outlined in the Lectures on Faith. Namely the requirement of Action. As hard/sad/unusual some of these events have been … there is an admiration within me for these people that they have the where-with-all to exercise their faith with the total
expectationof moving mountains results, come hell or high water. It is my own personal attempts at exercising faith to this definition that left me in a deep pit of despair and my current situation.
My heart goes out to Nick, as he is headed for a fall.
Bottom line … be careful out there with the full strength stuff.
I feel an old pet-peeve working its way to the surface: Take the “Doctrine and Covenants”. The actual title was given because the original publishing actually contained two distinct sections. The “Doctrine” was a collection of works from the “School of the Prophets” entitled …. Drum roll…. “The Lectures on Faith”. Of course the “Covenants” were the commandments of God.
For some reason, the doctrine was removed from the D&C leaving us only the covenants. And just as surprisingly most LDS have never read the doctrine portion.
The Lectures on Faith, surprise surprise, covers this exact question … “what is faith”
You might find that JS’s take on it differs from your standard, meeting house versions.
Well worth the read.
Consider the possibility that in a patriarchal linage, praying to the Father, in the name of the son might, at times be delegated to a third party whose direct love/concern/responsible might be via direct family ties. In meditative prayer, while trying to discern my “still small
voices“, I believe I have sensed different personalities at various different times. I attribute this to dead, or possibly not yet born family members. For example, I have specifically sensed my mothers father from time to time. I’m grateful for my “guardian angles”, whom I think sometimes provide answers to my prayers, and whom I image also petition the Father in my behalf. Especially in those times that one set of foot prints are all that is visible in the sand.
light illuminates everything but itself (i.e. the pitch blackness of space, with light piecing it in all directions). It is not until light strikes something else that its presence is perceived. Old-Timer wrote:Quote:It’s been speculated that Holy Ghosts may rotate out at a faster rate (i.e. JS was a HG)
Yes, that definitely is speculation.
😈 Just innocently trying to get that nut-shell description out there
MisterCurie wrote:Timpanogas,
I think I understand where you are coming from on a lot of this stuff, especially pertaining to the temple. I also served as an ordinance worker for 2 years in the Provo temple when I was a BYU student. I loved officiating in the ordinances of the Holy Temple and found a great deal of meaning in the ordinances. I often felt that Sunday services paled in comparison to the truths of the temple and that the LDS church was essentially meaningless without the temple. Sacrament meeting was essential for the ordinance of the sacrament, but I often felt the other meetings were nearly useless as we discussed the same things over and over again with the same repetition of answers. I recognized that the meetings could be useful for fellowship of the saints, but I did not find my support with the saints, rather my support came from deep doctrinal understanding.
yes, it sounds like we have a lot in common.
That was one of the very cool things about the Provo temple … Ordinance workers typically averaged 73 years old, plus. It was nice and likely unique to have a lot of BYU youth officiating in the Provo temple.
Bruce in Montana wrote:timpanogos,
The most complete explanation of it IMHO is in a little-known, outside of fundamentalist communities, book by Joseph Musser called “Michael our Father and our God” .
I’d like to check that out. A man named Craig L. Tholson also put together and incredible work simply titled ADAM-GOD. It’s written a bit more like a well referenced history book with great information on the evolution of the doctrine from the beginning, through the “Bunkerville Problem” (a small community by St. George that went up in arms over the Lecture) and finally with some great information/stories of it’s evolution. At the time, this was a doctrine that threatened the Church, with more outside hate, than polygamy every thought of.
Quote:
The only thing that you may have left out that helps folks understand is the concept of terms like “God, Christ, Redeemer, Savior, Holy Ghost, etc.” as being offices as opposed to names of individuals. That’s a huge can of worms that has taken me a year or two to understand.
Yes, thank you I mentioned the title/role of Adam … the others are also as you say.Bishop serves 5 years
SP serves 10 years
God Heads serves — One Eternal Round (2.5 billion years)
special note: It’s been speculated that Holy Ghosts may rotate out at a faster rate (i.e. JS was a HG)
Here is a symbology for you .. The pleats in the temple robe represent the “Eternities” an endless sequence of eternal rounds (i.e. creations).
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Tom Haws wrote:I am especially interested in the experience by which your fundamentalism was dispelled. May I ask you to describe the type of spirituality that has replaced it? To you, what now is the meaning of having your calling and election made sure?
I copied this from the intro thread. So far, the things in this thread appear to be some key issues for me, which I need to look/feel deeply after for awhile. In time I will try and respond fully to your questions here.
I welcome more input from everyone as you get a better feel for me in other posts.
Thanks
Chad
Tom Haws wrote:
You’ve got to understand that at this point in my life there is way too much other religion and general non-religious spirituality etc. swimming around in my heart for the above to be much more than a blip on my consciousness. But from my “way out” perspective (“no dog in the fight”), it sounds very nice to me. Thanks for sharing.What in the heck are you being apologetic over? I can rattle this stuff off like a 6 year old child at my mothers feet, microphone in hand “I know this stuff is true”.
It just surprised me a bit, coming back to the internet after several years of steering clear and find that Hinckley really must have meant it when he said something to the effect of “we don’t teach it, we don’t emphasize it”. And yet it really is the core teaching of the temple endowment. Sounds like another generation and it will be gone for good.
Unfortunately so will all of the “symbologies” that were shared, basically from mentor to student in the Temple. I mentioned the “hollowness” of the use of the term symbolic in the temple thread. Sure we all hear/know its all about symbolism … so ok, share one with me. Even if it is mythology, it is sad to see it all become extinct.
Here is a link to the infamous “Lecture at the Veil” dictated by BY in the St. George Temple when/where the temple endowment was first recorded in writing. The lecture was given during the endowment right before you passed through the veil. It was a summary/explanation of what you had just gone through. When I went through, they still had a special “lecture at the veil” for sessions that had people taking out their own endowments … of course these lectures were NOT the BY original.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Adam-God_and_the_%22Lecture_at_the_Veil%22 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://en.fairmormon.org/Adam-God_and_the_%22Lecture_at_the_Veil%22 Tom, As you can likely see from my posting so far, I’m like a schizophrenic with a deeply ingrained belief system on the one side and a disbelief in that same system on the other.
Ray and you have already left me some great things to chew on already in a different thread that I just want to watch and think about for awhile.
It appears Ray might know a thing or two about sumo wrestlers. Unfortunately I’ve built a UFC fighter by mistake, who loves “meat” and potatoes!
As much as I might want to try some fruit and vegies, the Mean son-of-a-gun is not too hip on being torn down.
If only I’d built a lightweight.
🙄 Cut the institute teacher some slack. The teacher might be well informed on the various issues but would not be able … at risk of their job … to discuss them. Unfortunately, you are not likely to find much support/help on these issues in the official channels. Gut feeling, the church is well aware of John Dehlin’s works and this site and they must view it as an answer to their prayers! Of course they would never stand behind it openly, but that’s ok. I’d suggest you stick around here for support, and keep your thoughts/struggles to yourself in the official channels for a bit.
Of course. I’ve done a lot of my own and my wife’s families work (sounds like the church might finally have some decent temple ready software … it used to really suck).
For eight years, I worked two nights a week in the temple. So yes it was important to me to go back and work for the dead.
Some time I’ll have to tell you my story about meeting BKP for what I assumed was going to be my excommunication over Jewish holocaust victim work (which we did for years in the Provo Temple before it became a hot issue).
