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Adam = Our God/Father

Jehovah = Adam’s God/Father

Elohim = Jehovah’s God/Father

Adam had a Celestial body (i.e. he had resurrected, exalted into the 7th heaven (GodHead)) before being placed into the Garden of Eden with one of his wives. Adam and Eve had populated their spiritual creation with spirit children and it was now time to provide them with the needed physical creation.

The concepts of Titles/Roles are key (i.e. think of Adam not as an individual but a title/role like say Bishop).

The connection of the couplet would be that I would become Adam and my wife Eve.

In the temple, At the very beginning of the endowment a “witness couple” is called to represent Adam and Eve and the congregation is instructed that they should each consider their selves as Adam and Eve. The presentation of THEIR (Adam/Eve, wife/you) endowment is then presented.

This model fits perfectly with the patriarchal order, which is the crowning level of ordnance in the temple. The beauty of the Father, Mother, Child relationship and literal fulfillment of numbers suggested in the Abrahamic covenant fit nicely.

Little side note:

I was at a ward members sealing one day in the SLC Temple. Elder Tingey was somehow related to the Brides family and was asked to do the sealing. He gave this wonderful review/discourse about the endowment and ended with a flowery grand finale of how Jesus would be there to bring us through the veil.

I was young and stupid at the time and mentioned to Elder Tingey, in private, that what he had said was wrong (Jesus never has direct contact with Adam/Eve in the endowment after they are booted from the garden). Well apparently Elder Tingey thought this over while we were dressing and meet me (in front of everyone else) in the basement lobby area of the SLC temple and let me have it.

About a month later, the mother of the bride approached me in tears at church one day. Apologizing profusely for the embarrassment Elder Tingey had inflicted on me. I’m so thick skinned it really never bothered me much, but apparently it left a big impression on the family present, and apparently Elder Tingey had found out the truth of the matter and had apologized to the family … I’ve yet to get my phone call.

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I’m getting like Bill … gun shy of pushing the submit button … but here goes:

This thread has a lot of hollow talk about “symbolism”. I don’t believe I saw any talk about ordinances.

In the doctrine … there is an absolute need in the exactness of the, might I call it physical aspects of an ordinance. For example if a toe pops up in a baptism, it must be repeated. Or if the Priests wording of Sacrament prayer is wrong, it must be repeated. And of course the absolute requirement of the ORDANANCE of baptism is required for salvation just as the ordnances of the temple are required for exaltation.

Are these “tenants” not some of the most basic and fundamental tenants of the church? Are all doctrines of the church fair smorgasbord items? Is there a difference between a doctrine and a tenant (i.e. are all tenants smorgasbord items as well)? These are rhetorical questions. The point being … at what point am I really just a cultural Mormon, where any denomination (or non-denominational) search for Christ would do?

There is a fine line between the “presentation of the endowment” and the Ordinances associated with the supposed restored Priesthood of God here on earth. Messing with just the presentation has always been a problem for me. Messing with the ordinances is the equivalent of a fallen prophet/church in my old-school book.

For me, the buffet menu items of choice would likely be the concepts of perfecting myself, over the period of a mortal lifetime, via the teachings (symbologies) involved in the names, signs, tokens and covenants of the various levels of the restored priesthood of God.

Most of the concepts of Adam/God with the ultimate goals of the Patriarchal (Holy) order, being Kings and Priests, Queens and Priestesses would likely be my food items of choice.

To me, the presentation of the endowment was not a history lesson, but a presentation of how the literal fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant blessing would be fulfilled, for my wife/wives and I

For what it’s worth … I would state that the ultimate promise (and hence goal) of the endowment to me, is to become a King and a Priest unto the most High God to rule and reign in the house of Israel forever. Maybe the Temple ceremony is not as Christ centered as we might want to believe.

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I was very saddened to hear of the latest changes to the initiatory

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Bill Atkinson wrote:

…

Your bullseye experience must have been a horrible event,

That was just the straw that broke the camels back.

The reason I left was not based on the church, it’s doctrine nor members … it was a thing between God and I.

Quote:

how did Wayne handle it all??

There are so many men, so much greater than I. Wayne was one of them. I don’t know much about the Fowler Scale, but using his terms, Wayne was an advanced level 5. It was water off a ducks back. I think he loved them even more for it. Wayne was a humble, Christ like man.

Quote:

I am wondering, (and I have no basis for this except for the 3 wards I have lived in here in BC and say another half dozen or so that I have visited more than two or three times, in Alberta) if this level of what seems to be quite common highly orthodox and verging on cruel responses to people with questions is a function of how close one is to the “bulls eye” of the Church. What I mean is that some of the stuff people here have reported is almost impossible for me to believe based on my own, as I have indicated, limited experience. Is it possible that the the closer you get to Salt Lake City the more fanatic and thoughtless people become? Just asking and not wanting to cause any trouble and I feel the big finger of Ray the moderator about to tamp on me again. ARggggg 😆

Things went a bit differently back then … these were not “questions” but things of deep doctrinal worth which we had learned and wanted to share. We held many topics of concern today as pearls of wisdom/knowledge.

Back then the church went on an excommunication/disfellowship spree to stop this practice of sharing. You keep your mouth shut, at the threat of excommunicated.

It is very interesting to note how the Church has done a 180 on this. For example, John Dehlin would have been excommunicated in a heart beat in the early 90’s. This is a very good sign that the Church is adjusting and your causes here have a great chance to continue the impact, for good, on the organization.

With a bit of trepidation of offending people here already, here is a post I did a while back which might better help reflect what was going on in the “mormon corridor” leading up to that time.

Manti anyone, think 1980’ish

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It would be a shame if this thread died.

Heck Bill, my second post was moderated, I was chastised and it was locked. Looks like Ray is going to be busy moderating/educating me …. RUN with it buddy, run!

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the humanmetrics.com link scored me INTJ

Introverted 44

Intuitive 62

Thinking 38

Judging 33

similarminds.com

INTP

Introverted (I) 53.57% Extroverted (E) 46.43%

Intuitive (N) 58.82% Sensing (S) 41.18%

Thinking (T) 52.94% Feeling (F) 47.06%

Perceiving (P) 63.89% Judging (J) 36.11%

I need to read up more on this subject … Hawk’s information is very interesting

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I am relieved and happy to see that this topic is not just summarily dismissed here.

Earlier on in the thread the topic of “speculation” keep coming up. Special thanks to Ray for putting into eloquent wording my thoughts … the very nature of our simplest knowledge’s of God are speculative.

The concept of “scripture” being the final benchmark/standard (for institutions and some individuals) of the acceptable line drawn between doctrine and speculation has also been alluded to.

I can see that the key to my possible return would be based on if I can quit trying to “share” (as in you dumb bunny how come you can not see things the way they really are … my way of course).

Maybe an interesting aspect that I did not see touched upon yet … The Abraham Covenant, given to the potential Elohim (El = God, with hebrew plural added) in the Temple marriage sealing.

Old-Timer wrote:

wordsleuth, the FACT that we really don’t have any idea is what makes the hardcore denials of all but one option so tiring to me. There is NO “logical” answer to this particular question, so it is the ultimate example of living by faith – no matter what option one chooses, theistic or atheistic.

That’s why I end up believing every single person simply has to choose in the end their own individual starting point – belief in some kind of higher, directed power / purpose or belief it its absence. Once that foundational reference point is established, the details of one’s “faith” can be fleshed into existence. Until that foundational reference point is etablished (and the underlying assumption recognized and accepted), I believe one’s perspective is not truly one’s own.

I’m not saying anyone has to struggle to establish that foundation. Many do with no struggle. What I’m saying is that those who never question and construct are participating in a collective, communal faith – rather than an individual one.

I also am not saying that an individual one is “better” or “higher” than a collective, communal one. What I’m saying is that each can be “true” or “right” or “correct” or “proper” for differing individuals – that just because I need an individual one doesn’t mean my wife or my children will need it. The communal one might be fine for them. That’s not my call to make; it is theirs. Letting go of the need to be right, and letting go of the need for others to be wrong, is a very liberating experience – no matter one’s ultimate conclusion.

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Old-Timer wrote:

timp, when someone comes on here for the first time, their intro and posts/comments need to be approved by an admin. We all are volunteers, so sometimes that takes a bit until one of us logs on and approves them. I think they’ve been cleared now.

Thanks Ray, I do appreciate how much time/effort is involved. And I’m sorry to everyone for the slur, especially Bruce if I have offended you. Truly no offence was intended.

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“They begin to lose their egocentric focus and are able to understand situations from another’s viewpoint.”

I resent that remark! I believe it’s only been in the last few years I’ve started to reach this point.

This discussion brings to my mind the “personality colours”, mine being bright red (Type A personality to the point of narcissistic).

I wonder how much influence the mentioned cognitive development stages might also have on the developing personality. Just how much of that personality come with us at birth?

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I remember years where I had a calling that in effect became more of a Sunday job (something I dreaded), than a day of rest.

And all of those weekends that maybe should have been spent with my wife and children in someplace wonderful, were always cut short by the drop-dead requirement of being in a chapel somewhere.

Maybe some future interview with God might contain the question “What were you thinking!”

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I suppose temple work could be discussed in four major areas:

[list]

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I believe the old RDLS had it right. They did not automatically advance through the priesthood and many adult males were still teachers etc. I’d be interested to know what their advancement criteria was. I know their men had a far greater respect for their priests, elders, HP, as these offices were not reached via automatic age advancement.

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I made a couple other posts last night … guess they got lost?

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I’m a coffee drinker …

It is funny how some simple, almost silly things have become so knee-jerk defend to the death … avoid at all costs, worst sin tenants of the church. Our salvation rides on the avoidance of things like:

WofW

a cross

civil marriages (recent MAD thread)

other religions

Even after 7 years, my TBM wife will NOT allow a coffee maker in the house. She has softened a bit and does make me my favorite frozen chocolate mocha cheese cake (with freeze dried, decaffinated coffee, which is of course, still a sin) for my birthday. “Since “your already going to hell” she tells me as she serves it up.

The irony is when you get asking the hard questions and a fairly standard response might be “I don’t concern myself with things that don’t pertain to my salvation, just follow Christ”

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I used to study a bit of Kabala and spent many moons in the temple in a true quest for revelatory learning.

I used to consider myself a mystic Mormon.

But like a Hasidic Jew would tell you, if you were not a good male Jew over the age of 45, this pursuit would leave a person literally insane. I found this to be a true warning worth heeding.

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