[Tobin]

As wl44 said, I also agree that the LDS Church is not the one, true church. I believe that is an entirely different animal altogether and if you are interested in that, the LDS Church may help you on the way to joining it – but it is not it. I value the LDS Church for the opportunity to serve with and associate with like-minded individuals. Even though I believe the leadership and many of them are deluded (and I’m sure people say the same about me), I still enjoy talking with them, giving someone a hug if they need it or a helping hand, praying, or doing anything I can to help them be better people. I believe in time Mormons will rediscover the truth underneath Mormonism and come to true knowledge of God. I know that will be a radical change for some of them, but I try to do my little part as best I can.

[Tobin]

I see nothing wrong with your decision. I would hope you will continue to seek the Lord and to do as he asks. That is what I feel is most important. I know in my case, I attend the LDS Church purely to serve and my DW rarely does (she and I attend a Humanist Society together often instead). And I do not believe in most of the doctrines that are taught because I believe they are distortions of the truth. However, I have good relations with the members there and the bishop and SP know that I firmly believe (know) there is a God and am willing to do anything God asks of me and am happy to help out the members as often as I can. I just want to know for sure that something is from God and not of Man and that is what drives my interest in Mormonism (and the LDS Church).

[Tobin]

In my view, I think the fact it says it is “Heavenly Father’s Plan” says it all. What it means to me is there is nothing I can do about it. What is going to happen will happen regardless of my opinion of it so I might as well make the best of the situation. And I am gratified that such a being would share his intentions with me. That is somewhat helpful. Plans help provide orientation and gives you some idea what to expect, but I think that is all it really does for us.

[Tobin]

On Own Now wrote:

Tobin wrote:

I don’t think they’ve thought it through and I think that is the nature of the problem here.

Keep in mind that just because someone doesn’t see it the same way you do, it’s not necessarily because they haven’t thought about it as hard as you have. For example, I don’t believe that either God or aliens are influencing us here on earth. So, no matter how much time I spend thinking about the GP, you and I will come to different conclusions. When it comes to religion/spirituality, each of us has our own beliefs. Nobody holds the position of being more informed. It’s all opinion.

Well, I disagree. I think the existence of these gold plates establishes the presence of God (or as I view them advanced intelligent alien life) interfering in our world. It really is aliens-visiting-the-UN-and-appearing-on-TV type of thing. Certainly, you could deny that if it happened. However, I believe that would only mean you were in unreasonable denial of the facts. I believe the gold plates are that significant.

[Tobin]

Heber13 wrote:

Seeing that it is most likely you will never be shown the plates…do you feel you can ever appreciate the book of mormon as much as you appreciate the golden plates?

I appreciate the Book of Mormon just fine I think and have read it many times and a lot about those involved in the history of making it. Right now, I believe it is a creative work of fiction.

Heber13 wrote:

One you have in your possession…the other you never will. Which is more important to you?

I think the truth is the most important thing. I would be happy with that.

Heber13 wrote:

Do you have any strategies on how to deal with your conundrum…or are you just wanting to debate with me whether I appreciate the gold plates or not the same way you do?

I really don’t have a conundrum. I believe the BofM is fiction. I would be happy to change my view once some actual facts are presented to change it.

[Tobin]

On Own Now wrote:

Tobin wrote:

I’m surprised that other Mormons don’t ask for exactly the same thing

Well, I would say that other Mormons don’t see the Gold Plates in the same way that you do. And, by the way, thanks for correctly referring to them as the “Gold Plates” rather than the primary-song-ized “Golden Plates”. Anyway, there was a time when I knew the BofM to be “true” based on spiritual knowledge. I never had a testimony that the Gold Plates were true. In other words, I think faithful members of the Church see the Gold Plates as the media, but the BofM is what was from God. From that standpoint, the physical nature or even the literal existence of the GP is secondary.

I agree. But I don’t think they’ve thought it through and I think that is the nature of the problem here. I think if or when the gold plates are returned, they establish the Book of Mormon rather definitively all by themselves. And I believe by simply obtaining them from these beings and by understanding what they represent, that would radically change how our species views our history and place in the universe. If there were such gold plates, I suspect that is why they were taken. They really do prove that intelligent alien life is interfering with our species and I don’t think they want that known at this point.

[Tobin]

Old-Timer wrote:

No. I just don’t believe there was any revealed, advanced technology involved.

So, do you believe that Nephi just knew how to make plates out of gold that we don’t know how to make today? And how did he just come by this knowledge exactly? For example, do you believe making plates out of gold was common knowledge in 6th century BC Jerusalem?

[Tobin]

Old-Timer wrote:

As I’ve said before, I like that people here can disagree quite strongly with each other and still converse civilly, respecting people with different views without trying to convert them to one’s own view. It’s what makes us work like we do. Thus, I am glad you can share your view about the plates with us.

Now, for some personal commentary to give a specific example of what I was saying in my previous comments:

Quote:

“I don’t think that you fully appreciate the significance of the gold plates. They weren’t . . .”

This is a good example of something that can be said differently in a way that fits our mission better. Making a few slight changes to the wording changes the tone significantly. For example:

Quote:

“I see the gold plates as being more significant than you do. I don’t think they were . . .”

It’s a subtle difference, but it’s not an insignificant one – since, frankly, I and (I think) most of the other participants here aren’t going to share the view you just explained. I can understand your view, but I simply don’t share it. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with sharing that perspective here, but to word it as being the right view and something everyone would understand if they only appreciated the significance more is not what we encourage.

Do you think the gold plates were a crude hunk of gold metal?

[Tobin]

Heber13 wrote:

Is it by hefting the gold plates and then we know the words in our Book of Mormon as printed in the English language is true? I don’t think so. What if the gold plates existed and Joseph had absolutely no idea how to translate them so he made it all up? That could happen, and in fact, is kind of likely if Martin Harris loses 116 pages and Joseph has the exact same source of plates but decides…lets just move on and not worry about that section.

I don’t think that you fully appreciate the significance of the gold plates. They were not just a crude hunk of gold metal. In fact, we don’t currently know how to physically produce plates of Gold with the characteristics as these Gold plates supposedly had. I believe this is advanced technology and something the Lehites were taught to do is or were given. The significance of the plates themselves would not only establish the Lehites existed, but that they possessed advanced technical knowledge of metal working beyond anything primitive humans were likely to have (or that we even possess today). The existence of these plates would be one of the most wondrous things EVER discovered in the history of mankind and would clearly indicate that we have been contacted by advance life. It would almost be like discovering the Lehites had nuclear reactors. It would also help establish advanced beings contacted humans and taught them to build ships and other things portrayed in the BofM.

Heber13 wrote:

If we found archaeological evidence to back up the war stories in the book…does that help prove the teachings of Christ in that record are all true? I don’t see that would help…facts about archaeological events aren’t going to prove doctrines and gospel teachings. It sure would be kinda cool to have some validation of facts…but it wouldn’t prove the gospel teachings are true.

Again, I think you are mistaken. Jesus Christ taught civilizing principles to help advance our species. The proven existence of Hebrews on this continent, who had to be taught or given technology to even get here, would be astonishing. In my view, it would definitively prove that many of these accounts (such as the teachings of Christ) have a basis in fact and that advanced life (Jesus Christ for example) have been interfering in and helping our species evolve and develop.

Heber13 wrote:

I also don’t think God thinks it is important for us to see the plates, or we’d have a big display in the conference center in downtown SLC. Asking God to see them, in my opinion, won’t be fruitful. It isn’t going to happen.

I think God wants us to know the truth and that includes the hard facts. If the plates exist, I see no reason we should not be able to see them and examine them. And I believe in time, these beings will return the plates and allow us to see them. The time when that will happen is when we ASK and are ready to receive them and know the truth ourselves.

I guess I see the Gold plates as being very significant. In and of themselves, they establish some rather amazing facts – which would transform our understanding of the ancient world, and our understanding of the universe we live in. I don’t think I can state how paramount these plates are in the history of our species (provided they exist). They would be that remarkable and should not be dismissed as insignificant or not worth seeking.

[Tobin]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

It was suggested I be a bit controversial in this OP to start things off, so I will.

[Admin Note:} I don’t know who suggested it, but don’t take that tack again. That’s not how we operate here.

We talk about controversial topics all the time, but we don’t intentionally write controversially in order to stir up comments.

Now, understand, I’m not upset, and I’m smiling as I type this – but we have our rules for a reason.

I was not aware of an anti-controversy rule in making or creating posts or comments. Where is this stated? I certainly do not wish to violate the rules of the forum.

[Tobin]

Heber13 wrote:

I’m so grateful our church teaches us to have personal revelation…boy…do I cling to that belief especially on topics like this.

If others have had dreams or feel they will be called to live in tents in Missouri or someplace…knock yourself out if you feel that is for you.

Since I haven’t had any feeling that would ever happen…I can choose to dismiss it.

In a hypothetical situation where my leaders told me I needed to go live in a tent somewhere to be considered a faithful member of the flock…well, I would still fall back on personal revelation. If the Lord wanted me to, I should be given personal revelation to do that. Since I doubt that would ever happen, I think I’m safe resting on that principle…personal revelation can help save me from doing whacky stuff others say is necessary.

But it can’t be completely far fetched when we have a history in…

– handcarts leaving for west late in the spring time

– kirtland banks needing members to invest to make it work

– Joseph Smith telling women to accept polygamy or their salvation is in jeapordy

– sacrificing all the saints had to build a Nauvoo temple they knew they would leave

We are taught faith is built on obedience and sacrifice. Faith is tested when personal revelation and priesthood revelation are not identical to the individual. Faith seems to also be tested at times to check if we are willing to obey, even in things we don’t understand. But even with the Abraham story, he was willing to sacrifice Isaac as long as the Lord would raise him up so he could fulfill the promises given (see Heb 11:19). So personal revelation is needed to know how to obey.

Yep, that is 100% my attitude. If someone claims to be a prophet of God (or has any communication from God), then I’d expect God will back them up and tell me too. Until then, I’ll continue to employ the brains in my head and that usually leads me to saying something along the lines of “you have to be kidding me?!?”

[Tobin]

SamBee wrote:

Kind of… there are several problems – firstly, the Spanish went and destroyed a lot, and I mean a lot in the Americas, especially manuscripts. Many relics and buildings have ended up under modern cities. Secondly, in tropical climates, stockades and relics made of wood don’t last long.

The Lehites destroyed themselves, so the Spanish had nothing to do with the decline and disappearance of their civilization. And I really don’t like the idea of postulating where the Lehites were (in the jungle, on a mountain, in the sea, etc.) until we have actual archeological evidence they existed in the first place.

[Tobin]

Megatherium wrote:

The absence of gold plates today and in church history runs contrary to my hope for what God is like. Wanting us to believe in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, while simultaneously removing the biggest piece of evidence makes God seem deceptive and even a little passive-aggressive.

I very much doubt that is God’s intent.

Megatherium wrote:

Moroni took the plates away. I was always embarrassed to tell this to investigators as a missionary.

Yes, very curious that don’t you think?

Megatherium wrote:

Joseph didn’t actually use the plates in the translation process. There are numerous accounts of him translating with the plates in another room or otherwise not present, by means of a seer stone, but not a single one of him translating directly from the plates. If he didn’t need them to translate them, why we’re they even given to him at all?

Yes, that is very strange. So, either he made it up, or him having plates he couldn’t show anyone is rather pointless and cries out that God was testing him.

Megatherium wrote:

We have the testimony of three witnesses, and of eight witnesses, but there are glaring problems with those for anyone who does an hour of research on Google on that topic.

And we don’t know them and have no reason to trust them, so their witness is worthless.

Megatherium wrote:

If nobody saw them, and they weren’t used in translation, it seems more likely to me that the BoM is an impressive narrative, but not historical.

EXACTLY!!! This is where I have arrived. If God so easily took them and kept them away from those who would melt them down supposedly, then I fail to see any reason that those of us that want to earnestly know if this is true should not be shown them. I’m perfectly willing to accept the BofM is factual. I would like to speak with God about it and see the plates. I don’t demand he do at this moment either (that never works). But, I’m willing to wait and will continue to ask Lord to see them and know for myself. Otherwise, my position is the BofM is a fictional work. And I believe that is EXACLTY what God wants us to do. The plates were not just a test for JS – they are also a test for us.

[Tobin]

Oh, I think JS and others were very mistaken on that point (among others). Not only that, but IF the BofM has a basis in fact, the Jaredite/Lehite civilizations had to have been very minor players on the American continent. Otherwise, I think we would have found them by now and indications of their civilization and technology.

[Tobin]

wl44 wrote:

For those who may feel that there is some possibility that the LDS church isn’t is the one true and living church on earth (and anyone else that would like to share their thoughts), what might be your response to God if he asks you why you reject some or all of the teachings of the LDS Church?

I would ask him which teachings he is referring to and then explain why I did not accept them. And I would discuss it with him. I think I have some very good reasons for what I believe and if I’m mistaken (which is very likely), then I’ll be happy to be illuminated by God.

wl44 wrote:

Do you think you would have any legitimate grievances?

I don’t have grievances against the LDS Church. I believe it is a man-made organization and the nature of such things is to make mistakes.

wl44 wrote:

Do you think the church itself may bear some responsibility?

It’s a man-made organization. It’s surprising when they get things right.

wl44 wrote:

What evidence may justify your claims/grievances?

I think there are some very good historical, scriptural, and logical reasons to disbelieve many LDS claims.

wl44 wrote:

Believing what you do about the character of God, do you think He might agree or sympathize with you?

I think he’d be amused by us and our petty perceived grievances, much as we are amused by an child that is acting up. He’ll then chide us and send us on our way and tell us to think about it and do better. The problem is that we are very primitive beings and are basically on par with ants in comparison to a human-being and human civilization in trying to grasp and understand God.

[Author]

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