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I’d like to echo the comments that I found the LDS temple confusing and very disconcerting the first time I went there. I actually didn’t want to go back, but then I determined I had somehow missed something so I went back a lot and even joined a sealing group to gain some additional insight into the place. It has been many years since I have been to the LDS temple. I guess it holds no mystery to me and I find the LDS version disappointing. I view it as an attempt by JS (and subsequently others) to communicate some of the nature of God to us, to teach us something about how our world have been contacted and influenced by these heavenly beings, and what our life after this one may be like. I believe It mostly fails in that attempt and the Masonic clothes it wears detracts from the message and intent. However, even though it fails, if you look, you can find the truth underneath.
Anyway, my view today is the LDS temple is a distortion of how such places are meant to ultimately be. I believe the intent behind the process of the temple is to strip us of self and status – to in essence equalize us before God. And in some respects it succeeds at doing that, but that intent is lost due to other things going on there. I believe in time, ultimately the temple will be a place where our species will speak with these heavenly beings face-to-face regularly. However, since the LDS temple is currently a distortion this rarely if ever happens. And I believe such places will be welcoming to all people in time, an educational institution about these beings and how to be more like them. That there will be music and celebration, but also have space for quiet meditation and reflection.
Hi Heavy_Laden, Thank you for your testimony and I’m glad you found a place that is loving and accepting. And I certainly believe Ray won’t deleted it.
For myself, I know there is a God. I have seen one of these beings and so I have no doubt. It is not belief in my case. And as a result, I have hope that the scriptures are true, that what JS said has a basis in fact, and that there is a life after this.
As far as which Church you belong to, I really don’t think it matters. None of the churches on this world is the one and only true Church of God. I would recommend that you instead remember that the Lord said, “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” Those who live peaceably and seek the Lord and to do his will all belong to his kingdom and church.
As for myself, I attend the LDS Church. And I don’t think it is superior to the CoC at all. While I believe Mormonism at its heart is based on fact and certain statements from God, over time human-beings being weak and error-prone as we are, have distorted things and gotten off course. However, it is my belief that it isn’t hard to get back on course and see the truth underneath. All one must do is seek the truth and it will set you free. I believe ultimately that truth is seeking, SEEING, and speaking with God yourself and he will set you on the correct path. And I believe that is the real message of Mormonism – that we each need to do that and come to know the Lord. That is the path I am on and I often lay awake meditating and leaving myself open the tender mercies of the Lord. I hope to one-day see him again as I have some questions for him. But I understand that all things are done on the Lord’s time-table and I will patiently wait till the Lord feels it is time.
Best Regards,
Tobin
I think the BofM poses a challenge to the reader that is very interesting. Its credibility is tied to human-beings being able to encounter the heavenly beings depicted in it and these beings demonstrating to the reader that these plates or things it depicts have a basis in fact. I think barring that, it should be discounted as purely a work of fiction. The reason I have such a dim view of the BofM is the narrative is ONLY possible if these beings manifested themselves to human-beings in the past and taught them how to build ships to come to the Americas. It is also clear these beings removed some key evidence of the veracity of the BofM like the gold-plates. I find it far-fetched that JS would have lost control of these plates if these beings deemed it should not be so (and that is why they took them). It is far more likely that he made up the whole story, or they were removed as a test (and the provision against showing them was also a test). Anyway, I don’t really believe in the BofM myself at this time. I do consider it inspired and am willing to hold open the possibility that some of the events depicted in it are actually factual. However, I have almost no evidence to-date that it is anything other than a creative work of fiction (inspired or not). I am more interested in exploring the challenge presented to the reader of the BofM. I would like these beings to appear to me and demonstrate to me that I am wrong by showing me the plates. And I believe that if the BofM is true, that is something that must happen for each of us to accept it as factual (and would explain why they were taken away after the translation). I think it is also a necessary step in coming to know the Lord and truly grasp the gospel.
DarkJedi, I wish you well in attempting to discuss things with your TBM wife. I unfortunately can’t relate directly. My wife was a never-Mo and is better educated than I am. She and I are pretty close on our beliefs. She’s a humanist, believes in evolution as I do, and believes in science and getting the best education possible. We both discount religion as mostly superstition which may or may not have some basis on some type of paleo-contact. She believes my account about encountering an advanced life-form and understands why I embrace Mormonism to a degree and believe it stems from these types of encounters as well.
I guess my advice is to be understanding. We are a pretty primitive species and many of us need to cling to superstition. Most people aren’t able to recognize that Jesus Christ and these other beings are merely more advanced intelligent life than ourselves and employ technology millions of years more advanced than our own. They need to believe in magic to understand the miracles these beings seemingly are able to accomplish and can’t understand that magic isn’t real.
TheDoctor13 wrote:One of the issues I have is the double standard between Joseph Smith and the rest of us.
So what if Joseph Smith used his position of authority to coerce young girls, married women, etc into having sexual relations with him. He was only a man. He isn’t perfect.
But if I were to do something similar, I would be excommunicated, my priesthood stripped away.
If we are going to be forgiving of Joseph Smith for his sexual indiscretions then we must also do the same for the rest of the church.
I don’t think anyone is excusing JS for his actions. But he is accountable to God for his actions, just as you are accountable to God for your actions. It is my view you have no priesthood, except that which God gives you and NO MAN can give it to you or take it away from you. So, if you aren’t doing what God asks and as a result do not have his blessing and priesthood, change your ways and do as he asks.
I don’t know if I would go as far as calling it a restoration. I view Mormonism as more of a hodgepodge. Some things such as some of JS’s encounters with what he saw as divine beings (what modern people may more properly identify as advanced life-forms) may have a basis in fact. Some other elements may or may not have a basis in fact such as the Book of Mormon and translation of the Book of Abraham. And other things such as the incorporation of Swedenborgianism, 19th-century frontier mysticism, and masonic traditions probably have nothing to do with the facts of our eternal existence and are pure imaginative fiction. Yes, welcome to the forum Doc. I left Mormonism completely and came back to it, so I sympathize with where you are at. My view is it is a man-made organization and the members are well-meaning (though often mistaken). I attend the LDS Church merely to provide service and help other people. I believe if you want to really know God, you have to approach and speak with him yourself and you can’t gain that knowledge any other way. The LDS Church may be a stepping stone on the path towards that goal, but that is all it is.
HI Deepthinker, My current view of the BofA is this:
1) JS had no ability to read or translate ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics into English. I do not believe he had any training to do so. I do not believe God taught him how to do so.
2) I do not believe the BofA is contained within the Egyptian papyri. It doesn’t make any sense that Pagans would preserve (make copies of) such a record and bury it with their dead.
– However, I am sympathetic to the view that Coptic Jews may have kept such a record. If there were such a papyri, it no longer exists and it was not what JS thought he was translating.
3) The Facsimiles are Egyptian. They should be removed from the LDS scriptures.
4) IF the BofA is inspired, the ONLY way that could be true is if it was revealed to JS. The revealed English translation would have had to come from the original writings of Abraham and would have nothing to do with the papyri we have. Similarly, the Facsimiles that Abraham made would have nothing to do with the Egyptian Facsimiles we have either. I can accept the BofA may be true (I still don’t know it is) under these circumstances. However, this is a rather radical change from how the BofA is viewed today in the LDS Church.
Tobin
I was torn between 6 and 7, but ultimately went with 6. I do not view the LDS Church (or earlier incarnations) as being what it claims to be. I believe they are all man-made organizations of like-minded believers and were never ordained and endorsed by God. Roy wrote:More good news is that as we realize that the modern church members take these scriptures out of context to prove their points – we have ample reason to ignore them.
:thumbup: Well, to be perfectly fair, many scriptures need to be taken somewhat out of context. After all, we are talking about sayings often made thousands of years ago in a world that no longer exists. I think it is important to be mindful of the context, but adaptation to our modern era is almost a requirement now.
Hi Deepthinker, I would like to also welcome you to the forum and echo hawkgrrl’s encouragement that you remain a member of the LDS Church and seek to help and serve others there. Like several others on this forum, I do not believe the LDS claims to be the one true church. Instead, I believe it is a man-made organization. However, despite that I attend and serve as best I am able. I believe I can set a good example as I seek the Lord and to do his will.
Also, I would encourage you to seek the Lord and to see and speak with him. I believe this is the true path to knowledge about the Lord and no man-made church on earth has all the truth he can teach you. Be patient and humble as you seek him. Bear in mind that we can not command God, nor force him to appear before us – but only through long-suffering, study, kindness and charity towards our fellow man, and patience can we come to this knowledge of the Lord.
SilentDawning wrote:I told my wife about the polyandry and she said “OK, so he screwed up, what’s the big deal — he was just a man!”.
I’m really surprised at her reaction. Not even sure what to write, other than I feel really surprised that an essentially TBM like this would brush it off. Perhaps because it attacks her central beliefs, she is able to brush it off — for the good of the rest of her beliefs.
I fail to see why you were surprised to her response? The direction the Church is going is recognizing the humanity of JS and that he did in fact make mistakes. Mormonism is not bound up in the supposed perfection of JS.
HI Truth88, Welcome to the forum and I really do wish you the best in finding someone that loves and accepts you for who you are. I was an atheist/ex-Mormon when I was dating, so it really wasn’t a priority to me to find someone in the Church to date. I was more interested in someone that was fun, outgoing, liked to be with me, energetic, and driven in pursuit of their own life goals as well. And the Book of Mormons was never a factor in my dating decisions. I just wanted meet a good-hearted, moral whole person. I guess that would be my advice to you as well. Look at the whole person and outside of Mormonism itself. There are a lot of good people in the world.
Old-Timer wrote:Tobin, your response has turned this thread into a discussion of aliens of some sort giving their powers to humans in a direct way – and the only thing that would satisfy that criterion would be something like what Joseph Smith described as opening the last dispensation and the example of the Mount of Transfiguration. Interestingly, Saul’s vision of Jesus would not fit this criterion, and neither would that of Alma the Younger. Finally, such visitations also cannot be proven in any analytical, scientific way. The idea that such visitations can give humans the authority to transfer to others the power given appears to be outside what you are talking about accepting – and I have not claimed at any point that I have been visited by some king of Being(s) who gave me power. Thus, we are at an impasse, and this conversation needs to end.
If that is your point and stance, I am fine with it for you individually – but it won’t be pursued any further in this thread. This thread will stick to the point of the post – the idea that people can lose power through unrighteous behavior and gain it again through repentance. Any reference to direct visitation and bestowal as the only real option will be deleted.
Everyone, back to the question of the post, please.
That’s fair. I guess I’ll reiterate my last position then. I don’t believe that Mormons really have God’s priesthood or authority and it is only ecclesiastical in nature, so I do not believe they can lose it or get it back. And I’ll leave it at that. Thank you for your response as far as it goes Ray and we can perhaps pick this discussion up another time when you wish to discuss it further or it is more relevant to the thread topic under discussion.
Best,
Tobin
Old-Timer wrote:Tobin, I am typing this with a smile on my face, but I have absolutely no desire to share my experiences in order to be dissected and analyzed to see if they can be proven to be objective miracles – especially by someone who is coming into it strongly convinced that they aren’t. I know what I have experienced, and I have examined those experiences as analytically as I can and can find no way to explain them logically (without factoring in the possibility of the miraculous, which is not traditionally logical) – and I also am dead certain that you wouldn’t accept them as incontrovertibly miraculous, just as I am sure at least a couple of other participants here wouldn’t accept them as such.
Oh, I think I’m pretty open-minded about such things and willing to give them a fair look. Remember, I have seen these beings and I know they exist. I just find it unlikely they would capriciously and carelessly give primitive creatures, such as we are, access to this type of power (which I believe is really access to their technical capabilities). That is why I am dubious of such claims. I’ve yet to meet someone in close contact with such beings and employing their power in our world. And if you are such a person, my apologies. I just have never met such an individual before.
Old-Timer wrote:If you don’t believe in unexplainable power of some sort that can be accessed by humans, particularly if you have never experienced anything of that nature, I am fine with that. I really am. As I’ve said, at the most fundamental level, we only can “know” (to any degree) what we have studied, witnessed and/or experienced personally – and, even then, we can’t know some of it objectively. We certainly can’t explain to others adequately enough for them to believe if they can’t see what we’ve seen. I also am fine with that. We aren’t looking for unanimity of experience or belief here; we are trying to build a community of diverse people from whom we can learn – particularly in ways that are not natural (that are “foreign”) to us.
Oh, quite to the contrary. I actually believe such claims in the scriptures and other sources may very well have a basis in fact. I’m just interested in really seeing it for myself. That is all.
Old-Timer wrote:I have shared the example of Laman and Lemuel and why I think they get a bum rap in the Book of Mormon. The example that related to this thread is when Nephi asked if they have inquired of the Lord to see what Lehi saw – and they respond that the Lord doesn’t make those things known to them. If Nephi (and Lehi) had been open to that as a factual, honest, acceptable answer, we might have a different narrative than we have – if they had understood that some people simply don’t have visions or hear voices or feel soul-burning impressions. Those who have those experiences tend to discount or reject the idea that others don’t have them, while those who don’t have them tend to discount or reject the experiences of those who do have them.
Yes, but Laman and Lemuel saw this power used and had evidence of it. They just chose to ignore what they knew to be true. I’m actually quite open to seeing such a thing and learning about this power from someone in close contact with these beings as Nephi was.
Old-Timer wrote:I’d rather be open to both types of lives as legitimate and valuable – as well as all points between those extremes.
That is up to you. My inquiry is in honest earnest to know for myself that you (or anyone else) has such power, how you obtained such power from these beings and what these beings said to you when they granted you this power, under what principles such power is employed and how it works, and what conditions they imposed upon you?!? If you are unwilling or unable to help me, that is entirely up to you. I certainly won’t hold it against you.
