[Tobin]

On Own Now,

I don’t believe anything you’ve cited directly refutes or in any way diminishes anything I said. The D&C up to that point had been a set of man-made writings binding upon the Church by common consent. If you would like to point out any differences, please feel free and I’ll be happy to respond.

Now I’ll deal with this given my view of revelation. I do NOT believe that one set of man-made statements are more important, binding or truthful than another set of man-made statements because someone arbitrarily decides to attach some mystical significance to them such as by designating them as revelation. This is an artificial imposition or interpretation and a flawed view in my opinion. As I’ve already pointed out, the D&C is a man-made document and a commonly agreed upon set of man-made commandments and/or statements. One needs to carefully scrutinize these documents as a result and realize how they were created, were being used and/or abused by men at times. To illustrate my point to you, I’d like you to point out one example of any of these writings that was not written by a man. You will be completely unable to since there have only been a few writings directly written or objects directly created by God himself. None of which we have in our possession. Examples of that would be the Liahona (and the writings that appeared there), the ten commandments, and so on.

On Own Now wrote:

I don’t believe it is accurate to say that “They stated that polygamy was lived to provide protection, shelter, and to sustain widows…” Those rationalizations were listed as benefits of polygamy, not the reason for it. Plural Marriage was ever and always in those days viewed as necessary for exaltation. We have a much stronger tendency in the modern Church to hear this form of “why” response, because we no longer view it as an absolute for exaltation (thankfully).

Again, you are not refuting what I said or did not read it carefully. These were the very reasons they gave to the world to defend the practice. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of how they were conducting themselves by not conducting themselves like this. This lack of candor and truthfulness is a symptom of the sin they were committing.

On Own Now wrote:

Brighamite sect or no, plural marriage was practiced well before BY took over control of the Church. Plural marriage originated with JS. It was his program… and his downfall. BY institutionalized it.

This is another failure to grasp what I was saying. Whether or not God told JS and those he engaged in polygamy with to do so, I do not know. I think it can be argued quite successfully that what he was doing was unseemly and destructive to the Church (i.e. apparently a sin). However, that is between God, himself, and the lives he affected. I am content to let God judge them for good or ill. My point was one should only do such a things if God has commanded one to do so (and I believe one should deeply question the Lord about such things and do so only based upon the purest of motives). I very much doubt that is the way the Brighamites were living polygamy. They were simply taking multiple wives as they felt the desire to and not as God directly told them to (and this was the sin). And I believe they were forced to stop in time as a result of this sin.

[Tobin]

mercyngrace wrote:

Ruthiechan wrote:

Mercyngrace

Joseph Smith said that paradise and spirit prison are the same thing. It’s the Spirit World, and it is one’s state of mind as they go from this world to the next that make it a prison or a paradise.

Yup. :thumbup:

One of the common themes I have noted of interest in the near-death experiences I have studies is the idea that in the life to come, we can think a thing and it becomes real to us. But there is more to it than that. We can sense the thoughts of others as well. And as such, we will tend to group with others who THINK as we do. So if we are mean, arrogant, spiteful, cruel, sadistic, and so on; we will associate with those that are like we are and they and our thoughts will form our prison. To liberate ourselves, we must put off our self. If we wish to truly be free in the life to come, one must seek to be kind, liberal with all one has and giving to all comers, loving, accepting, nurturing, and full of goodness. It is very much as the scriptures say that our thoughts will betray us. We must master ourselves and exceed our natural impulses to liberate ourselves from such shackles.

[Tobin]

Since my experience with one of these beings, I have never really had a problem with the concept of Satan. I think about it this way. If there are beings are cloaked in light, exceeding kindness, love, acceptance, selflessness, and benevolence, then it would seem reasonable there would also exist beings on the opposite end of the spectrum. Beings that are cloaked in darkness, loathsome, vile, hateful, petty, spiteful, mean, intolerant, and merciless. In fact, I can’t imagine one without the other. It would seem to be a natural outcome of our universe.

[Tobin]

I’ll provide the smoking gun here:

1) We know from the Book of Mormon that polygamy was considered a sin and against the will of the Lord. The only exception being those who have been directly commanded otherwise by the Lord.

Quote:

Jacob 1:15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

2:22 And now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride. And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime, my heart would rejoice exceedingly because of you.

2:23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

2:24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

2:25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

2:26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

2:27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

2:28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

2:29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

2:30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

2) It was a commandment in the Church JS founded that this should not be done. Section 101 of the 1835 D&C contained the following:

Quote:

Marriage should be celebrated with prayer and thanksgiving; and at the solemnization, the persons to be married, standing together, the man on the right, and the woman on the left, shall be addressed, by the person officiating, as he shall be directed by the holy Spirit; and if there be no legal objections, he shall say, calling each by their names: “You both mutually agree to be each other’s companion, husband and wife, observing the legal rights belonging to this condition; that is, keeping yourselves wholly for each other, and from all others, during your lives.” And when they have answered “Yes,” he shall pronounce them “husband and wife” in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by virtue of the laws of the country and authority vested in him: “may God add his blessings and keep you to fulfil your covenants from henceforth and forever. Amen.”

The clerk of every church should keep a record of all marriages, solemnized in his branch.

All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church, should be held sacred and fulfilled. Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. It is not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband, neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband. All children are bound by law to obey their parents; and to influence them to embrace any religious faith, or be baptized, or leave their parents without their consent, is unlawful and unjust. We believe that husbands, parents and masters who exercise control over their wives, children, and servants and prevent them from embracing the truth, will have to answer for that sin.

3) Section 132 was added by the Brighamite Sect of the LDS Church to justify their behavior in 1875!!!

I believe the following facts establish that the LDS Church, which in reality is the Brighamite sect, instituted polygamy as an institution of the Church against the commandment of God to justify their own sin and behavior. Nothing helps clarify the problem by judging them using their own reasons. They stated that polygamy was lived to provide protection, shelter, and to sustain widows and to allow women to have marry and have children that would not otherwise have a chance to do so. However, this is NOT how they conducted themselves. Often young women, who were very eligible for marriage to men their own age, were selected by the older polygamists. This was hypocritical and validated they were only doing it in pursuit of their own lusts and desires and not something God would have wanted. As you can imagine, this caused problems for younger Mormon men in finding wives. And the ultimate sign of how the Lord felt about this is God allowed the US Government to come in and put a stop to the practice. Do you really think if this were an eternal principle ordained of God, that any man-made government could force them to stop?

[Tobin]

I attended the temple often when I was younger, seeking some insight into what it meant. I even participated in a Sealing group for sometime as well with the temple president to gain his insight into the temple. So here are my thoughts about it and Masonry:

My first initiation into the temple and the Masonry involved was shocking. I was absolutely appalled and repelled by it. I really had no idea what was going on and I found it completely alien to anything I had seen in the LDS Church up to that point. And I still hold that view today. At first, I wanted no part of it and never wanted to go back again. Then I thought I had missed something and I wanted to get to the bottom of what was going on, so I attended multiple endowments to listen and fully understand everything that was being said. I also wanted to see the sealing ceremony and joined a sealing group to understand that as well. The result was no change in my initial view of it.

However, now later in my life and having experienced one of these beings as JS must have, I have a different view of the temple. I still believe the Masonry is nonsense and not that interesting. But, I think I understand it. It was JS’s way of trying to come to terms with encountering these beings and how he was trying to relate his experiences to us through this ceremony (I view it more of a production or a play since movies hadn’t yet been invented and he didn’t have a better way of explaining it). And I have decided that there is more to the temple ceremony than I thought as well. I believe if you look, there are many instances within it that speak of multiple worlds where this kind of thing has gone on before. That temples have been used as a place where primitive beings like us can meet with, speak with, and experience these more advanced beings from outside our world. And that a true temple (I’m not pretending the LDS version is anywhere close to that today) is a place of learning about this life, how they exist, and it gives us a taste of how we can develop after our deaths.

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