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I love this forum! And, Katie, what a great thread. For me, it is getting better. It gets better. You get better at communicating sensitively. You get better at pulling the “good parts” out of lessons and talks.
I really second what HiJolly said. It may take an extreme crisis to force such a radical move, but if you can let go of every conception and belief, the ensuing wonders are untold!
Tom
I think for a lot of us that grew up in ancestral LDS families, polygamy is not a stumbling block until something makes us step back and really consider it for what it is in all its implications. It then becomes extremely problematic. Nuanced, but problematic. That’s really neat, HiJolly. Can you expand on being “in a position” where you can afford to say such things? You mean your age? John Hamer wrote:If we imagine that people in the past saw things we don’t see now, we are cutting ourselves off from our own spiritual existence.
This is wonderful, John.
I think, bridget_night, that to appreciate the temple in the sense Ray and HiJolly are proposing, you need to be of such a mind that you are prepared for revelation at any moment, and anything at all can be the catalyst. If the temple ends up being that catalyst, you may say that you have an “appreciation” of the temple. Is that fair, Ray and HiJolly? Well, we do have the facsimiles. See hereWikipediaHere’s part of the problem:
Around the circumference of facsimile 2 there is a ring of characters. From about the 1:00 to the 4:00 position (as well as further into the circle) the papyrus was gone. Joseph Smith filled in that empty space with excerpts from a paragraph in another papyrus in his collection.
Wikipedia says:
Quote:Scholars and Egyptologists have also criticized Facsimile 2 for containing false reconstruction of lacunae, suggesting that Joseph Smith reconstructed portions of the vignette with characters from another papyrus.[47] Critics note that an incomplete version of facsimile 2 is found among the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, part of which are in the handwriting of Joseph Smith. Comparing the published version of Facsimile 2 with the version from the Kirtland Egyptian Papers and the newly rediscovered papyri, critics note that characters from the original papyri appear to have been used to fill in the missing portions of Facsimile 2, with some of the characters being upside down.[48]
Some Mormon apologists have proposed that the facsimiles were filled in to make the images more aesthetically pleasing, and have little to do with the actual interpretation of them[citation needed]. Others note that it is unclear if Joseph Smith himself filled in the facsimiles[citation needed], although he was the editor of Times and Seasons, the periodical in which the facsimiles first appeared, and as such would have approved any images that were included.
Oh, my signature line is “Sure, any church would do. But I’m LDS.” I’m trying to learn to be a spirit of the law kind of person. That’s why I am here. I suppose I am a recovering absolutist. My default reaction was drop the church and join a monastery. But I didn’t do that. And most people in the ward probably don’t know anything ever changed for me.
While mainstream journalists and news sources don’t tend to refer to the Mormon Church as a cult, I am not comfortable that we try to close the discussion with a clear “no”. That disenfranchises some sincere people with real grievances. I think “cult” is personal and local. Your LDS experience may be culty. Mine may not be. Or vice versa.
As with most things, I feel it’s best to leave the question open-ended, and perhaps unanswered. “What is culty about my religion?” “What can I do better?”
“Lord, is it I?”
Tom
John Hamer wrote:I think the problem for cultural or secular Mormonism is the authoritarian structure of the LDS Church itself. The church welcomes neither dissent nor free-thinking; it’s a top-down organization that values obedience to leaders and conformity to practices above all. Therefore, while I advocate staying Mormon, I don’t favor staying LDS.
No question that it’s a long row to pick to hoe. But the core assumption of this forum is that we are supporting each other in choosing it or entertaining that possibility. Think of it as a grand experiment.
I will always remember the time User:Ed Poor “Uncle Ed” at Wikipedia (of the Unification “Moonies” Church) said to me with an online grin, “My cult is cultier than your cult.” I think taking it all in stride with humor, frankness, candor, and acceptance is a great thing. For what it’s worth, I loved growing up in the church. But it
didtend to encourage us vs. them thinking in me. At the same time, it encouraged getting outside that same thinking. Perhaps it was the culture that did the first and the pulpit and texts that did the second. Tom
LadyWisdom wrote:He also asked if I pay a full tithing. I said Yes. He then asked… to the ward? (I personally make little $$, but we give offerings regularly to our other church.) I told him that I have an envelope at home that I need to give to the bishop, that I forgot to give him on Sunday, which I do.As I did think about it last month and on Sunday that I need to make a tithing payment/fast offering to the ward, so my mind could be at ease with this… that I am making a donation for the little I or my daughter do glean from the church.
It’s so hard in the moment of the interview to remember to simply repeat. “Yes, I am a full tithe-payer.” “To this ward?” “I can’t rightly say, but I am a full tithe payer.
“ Regarding tithing, I need to say I definitely believe in practicing it very generously, and in answering the question accordingly. I would not accept a recommend if I were not generous in my tithes in the most generous interpretation. Then again, that’s getting into a pharisaical conception of who can be in the temple, isn’t it? That shows my default mode, still uncured.
A blessing on your head and on the head of your good priesthood guys!
Tom
bridget_night wrote:“Although the lds church has the fullness of the gospel, I work through all the churches and they are all my people. That other churches are like stepping stones to the full truth. Not everyone can handle the fullness right away. You cannot take a junk food junkie and make them a health food nut overnight. Line upon line. So, at times God leads people to good Christian churches that may prepare them for the fullness eventually.
Remember that when Jesus told Joseph Smith that the other churches had teachings that were an abomination in His eyes, he never said the people or the churches were an abomination just the teachings. Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc, were all reformers and stepping stones towards the truth.
I am glad you are here. I am glad you are in the church. This is a safe place to share your revelations.
I love your revelation. I love how it includes no closing quote. Sure, I make that “mistake” all the time, but in this context it has meaning for me. You never know where the revelation ends and humanity begins, or if there is such a place.
To me, the revelation applies universally like this: “I work through all the churches and they are all my people.” All churches are like stepping stones to the full truth. Nobody can handle the fullness right away. You cannot take a junk food junkie and make them a health food nut overnight. Line upon line. So, God leads people to good churches that prepare them for the fullness. See my signature line.
John Hamer wrote:Interesting. It’s a little bit of a strange list. Your list works best for the common beliefs 2 Xs, but for the distinct 1 X beliefs, from the perspective of one church or the other, you sometimes give the positive version, sometimes the negative, and sometimes both.
Example:
BOTH VERSIONS
Priesthood ordination has never been denied to persons because of race or color. X — CofC
The church denied priesthood to blacks for a period. X — LDS (1852 to 1978)
LDS POSITIVE ONLY
The canon of scripture is not usually added to. X — LDS
In this case, the CofC Positive would be:
Every Prophet-President of the church has produced revelations that have been added to the D&C. X — CofC
CofC POSITIVE ONLY
Women are ordained. X — CofC since. Nov. 1995 (By the way, this should read 1984, not 1995.)
In this case, there should be an LDS Positive like:
Priesthood is conferred upon worthy males only. Women are understood to have a separate eternal role as mothers and care-givers [or however LDS people justify this policy]. X — LDS
* * *
All in all, I think the Xs format isn’t the best — I presume you’re modelling this on an old chart by Steve Shields — unless you want to include columns other Latter Day Saint churches (e.g., independent fundamentalist Mormons, FLDS, Strangites, Bickertonites, Hedrickites) and possibly a column for mainline protestants. If you’re just doing a straight on comparison, you might introduce topic, list common beliefs, list distinct beliefs.
For example:
TEMPLES
Both the LDS Church and the Community of Christ own and operate temples, a practive derived ultimately from temple in Jerusalem, which has a prominent place in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. For both churches, the temple is an extraordinarily sacred space where humans can commune with their God.
The Community of Christ operates two temples, one in Kirtland, Ohio, and one in Independence, Missouri. The underlying purpose of both stem from a revelation given to Joseph Smith Jr., calling upon the faithful to build a house of the Lord for worship, education, ministry, and church education. The Kirtland Temple was the headquarters of the early church from 1836-37, and the Independence Temple has been the headquarters of the Community of Christ since its dedication in 1994. The Independence Temple also includes ministerial and educational facilities, including the church’s Library-Archives. Both temples are open to all visitors, member and non-member alike. A revelation given to Wallace B. Smith in 1984 specified that the Independence Temple would be dedicated to peace and a special prayer for peace is conducted in the temple sanctuary daily (a prayer for peace is likewise held daily at the Kirtland Temple’s spiritual formation center). The Community of Christ recognizes that a special “endowment” (or blessing) was poured out among the early Saints in 1830s, but does not recognize or employ ceremonial “endowments” developed in Nauvoo in the 1840s. The Community of Christ likewise does not baptize for the dead and marriages are not performed in either temple.
The LDS Church operates over a hundred temples, including the Salt Lake City, Utah, Temple and a rebuilt temple in Nauvoo, Illinois. The fundamental purpose of the temples is “temple work” — sacred ceremonial experiences that members do not discuss with outsiders. These ceremonies include baptism for the dead, endowments for the living and the dead, and marriage “sealings” for “time and all eternity.” Members believe these ordinances are essential to exaltation — achieving the highest degrees of glory in the afterlife. Because of their sacredness, the temples are closed to all save worthy members who have received a “recommend” from their presiding priesthood authority. LDS members believe that the Salt Lake City Temple was built in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies. Although the headquarters of the LDS Church is part the greater Temple Square complex in Salt Lake City, the temple itself is not used for administrative, ministerial, or educational purposes. LDS temples are not dedicated to peace and do not perform daily prayers for peace.
See what you think.
John
One problem I have with the logic of the list as is stands (simply a concept of course) is that there is a mixture of fact and belief in the snippets. A lot of the snippets implicitly apparently assume that the reader will take them as “beliefs” others, however, appear to be presented as “facts”. The line is blurry and it should be sharp, as our Wikipedia experience taught us.
This is good experience for me. A good brush-up on NPOV is a good thing.
HiJolly wrote:I agree that the covenants are beautiful. And the name of the sign given at the veil is the only time ANYWHERE in the Church that we actually pronounce a blessing on ourselves (and our posterity, true). I think that is significant.
Speaking of that, I came up with a little melody to it that I hum. I even set it to music in a midi file.
I never had anywhere to share it until now. See if you can follow it.
