[Tom]

Rix wrote:

Think of going to a sales presentation and hearing that a particular product cures cancer, gives us energy, helps us lose weight…and of course will make us a million dollars in a year. The sellers have a vested interest in the product giving the results described, and must be viewed with skepticism by those looking for scientific and medical fact. But maybe that’s why there are so many MLMs in Utah?! There is a similar mindset as to how to learn “truth.”

I think you are dead on Rix. This mindset of believing what is perceived as “absolute truth” can carry on into our financial endeavors as well. I have been invited and attended close to a dozen MLM meetings in the last 10 years and I know of the pressure to simply trust those who invited you in, especially if they are family/friends/ward members. You probably trust them with your lives so why not trust them with your money and time as well? I have personally seen many a family relationship destroyed over these kinds of business ventures.

What is really funny about most MLM/Pyramid schemes is that they always, always sound too good to be true. Which is always, always the case. Of all those MLM’s I investigated, I joined exactly none of them. I guess this life of skeptical inquiry that I now lead has been festering inside for a long time.

I have always felt uneasy about being “absolutely certain” about anything. I just found ways to push those doubts on a shelf and join the group-think. But now I attend church without the group-think control, which really is awesome.

[Tom]

borninit wrote:

The fact that you came back into the fold for whatever the reason may be, shows that you have that sticktuitiveness required. Your testimony is like Peter, James, and John at that time. They didn’t really know why they should stay but they believed they should because He had the words of Eternal Life. Are you much different?

Wow. How do I respond to that? I don’t think my testimony is like Peter, James, or John, or ever was in fact. But I do appreciate the kind words nevertheless.

Maybe you are right though, maybe it really doesn’t matter what the real reason is as to why I returned, it just important that I did. But I’ll tell you what, some of the members in my stake & ward certainly don’t like that I have returned. They had turned their backs on me so now it is uncomfortable for them and most are still unwilling to come around to face me for who I am now. It’s kind of fun because I hold no resentment towards them, so I do kind of enjoy watching them try to avoid me at all costs. Sometimes I confront them with a friendly smile and tell them that it is good to see them. Sometimes the reactions range from shocked & confused to a kind of “looking at the floor” awkward hello in return. Oh well, if I can’t find ways to enjoy my experience I will go crazy.

[Tom]

Poppyseed wrote:

Hi Tom. I have spent a lot of my life in Utah County. I will confess I have a love/hate relationship with the place. And even with my issues, I will defend it to the death.

Your story hit home for me as well. In fact, it was hard to read you without getting a little emotional. I didn’t choose to be open with my concerns as you did. I think I knew what happened to you would, most assuredly happen to me. My road has been a lonely one and I prayed often that HF would bring me people who would have the words or perspectives AND Spirit I needed to help me sort thru it all.

Thanks for the warm welcome. It makes me feel better when I know there are smarter people than me out there that don’t jump before they think things through. You will have to keep me informed as your journey progresses!

[Tom]

johndehlin wrote:

Tom,

Based on my readings from Chaim Potok….it would be bad for the church to completely lose its orthodoxed leaders and members (like the lady in the article you mentioned). They keep the church alive. If religion loses the literal strand of belief, it usually withers (in my observation).

So if we love the church and believe that it’s a good thing for the world — then we want the orthodoxed around…and we even want them spouting their rhetoric. Who else would do the callings we don’t want to do?

What we should want/strive for is a welcomed place at the table. Not agreement with our positions — but acceptance and welcoming of us as valid participants.

Plus, by having us at the table (in a non-closeted way) the dinner conversations will be all the more interesting. And we’ll get fed too (hopefully). I think the church needs orthodoxed AND liberals to stay healthy. It’s a balance.

So it will take some time — but things are moving fast now. I think that in 5-10 years we’ll be a sizable, non-closeted portion of church membership.

That is all I am asking for too, is just a welcomed place at the table. What is frustrating to me though, is that it depends on who’s house you are at that determines whether you are invited to partake or whether you are asked to wait outside. One leader or member will allow you in, while others do not. Right now my orthodox leaders are not inclined to let me partake with them at the table fully. And they most certainly aren’t happy about me being there.

I don’t want the ultra orthodox leaders and members to not be in the church, I just don’t want them to ostracize me for not subscribing to the “One and only true” belief and allow me to still participate. Maybe your right John, maybe in 5-10 years things will be better in the church for people like us. I am most certainly hopeful for that kind of future in the church. But, the real question is whether I will still feel this same way 5-10 years from now.

[Tom]

HiJolly wrote:

I don’t doubt that we humans ‘need’ to be certain. In fact, I’m certain of it. You seem to be of the opinion that we shouldn’t be the way we actually are. Interesting, if not very logical. Are you thinking along the same lines as Sam Harris does in his book “The End of Faith”?

Yes I am aligned with Harris in this thinking. I’m guess I am saying that we should go against what is appears to be natural for human behavior. There are many “natural” human behaviors that I think we should correct. Like the overwhelming fascination with sex for example.

Quote:

You must be very certain in all this, to be tilting at windmills…

I guess I am certain that being certain isn’t the correct way of thinking. I guess that makes me a kind of hypocrite, but I think the first step towards a solution to the problem is just being aware of it. You can’t make any corrections if you aren’t aware of any missteps.

I appreciate your comments.

[Tom]

I hear what you are saying John and I most certainly like to think you are right. But then I read an article like this one (and it was posted today in fact): MormonTimes – “Not a pick-and-choose gospel”

Quote:

The gospel of Jesus Christ never has been and never will be a “pick-and-choose gospel.” Members are not free to pick and choose, to decide which principles are right and which are wrong. It is a complete and unified body of eternal doctrine.

I find myself leaning to what you are saying John, but it is difficult when you have others saying, publicly no less, that there isn’t any room for those with a “pick and choose” approach in the church.

[Tom]

I remember hearing Elder Holland stating this. Now if I could just get my Stake President and my Bishop to get on board as well my life would much less stressful.

This statement also makes me wonder how many of the GA’s actually subscribe to this… I would place my bet on less than 50% of them actually do. It does make me a bit optimistic, but then again, I have ran into way too many “Fundamentalist” GA’s in my life as well. Not to mention some of the local leaders down on the local level, like my current stake and ward for example.

[Tom]

wendell wrote:

IAnyway, I’m hoping this forum can be a tool to help me find a way to get over my frustrations/disappointmnent/bitterness towards the members of the church so I can start attending once again. I’m very glad I found this forum, and have already had some very good experiences here.

Great to see someone else from Utah County representing!

As far as trying to find ways to start attending again by overcoming the frustrations, there is no good solution I’m afraid. For some, they find a connection to the social aspects in the church. For some, they resonate with the teachings/doctrines that they do agree with. For some, they do it to keep their marriage and family together. For some, they simply have nothing better to do. There are many reasons to go and there are many reasons to stay home too.

If you do decide to go back and give the church another shot, just make sure its on your terms. Don’t do things that will put you in situations that will send you backwards rather than forwards. If you still have bad feelings towards some of the members of your ward, be overly nice to them. Then watch their reactions, it can be very funny! Remember you aren’t going for them, you are going for you.

And if you aren’t comfortable with home teaching/talks/callings at first, then don’t do them. Make sure you let your leaders know that you just need some time at first and that with time, you may come around. If they are genuine in helping you back, they will let you go at your speed.

Keep us updated with what ever you decide to do. Best of luck!

[Tom]

Heber13 wrote:

Tom wrote:

I hope that I can be accepted here and maybe contribute as well.

You’ve already contributed! Thanks for sharing.

Make sure you check out the home page with all those resources that have great things for you to think about. Fowler’s Stages on Faith is interesting. Have you read through any of that to see if you find yourself in that?

Keep sharing…thanks for being here. And Welcome.

I have read through Fowler’s stages of Faith and I do know John Dehlin was a big subscriber to what Fowler described as well. I do know that how Fowler describes the stages can be very useful for some. But for me, not so much. His stages kind of feel to me like you smarter (superior) the higher the stage you subscribe to. If you are a stage 2 or 3, then you just haven’t progressed that far yet.

I don’t know, but I just don’t like that approach for some reason. I guess I don’t like categorizing myself. I have felt like I fit in a stage 4, maybe 5 at times, but I feel like I pumping my chest to those that fit in a stage 1-3. But, then again I think I’m reading to much into all of it.

[Tom]

jmb275 wrote:

Welcome Tom. Your story resonates with me quite a bit. Our stories are very similar. I also find reason to stay for the things you mentioned. I wasn’t quite so vocal about it as you though (I only told my Bishop and I was very careful about what I said), so I haven’t had to deal with any fallout from friends. I feel for you. But it sounds like you’re through it. Welcome to the StayLDS fold!!

Thanks for the kind words, you were smarter than me. That “take it slow” approach didn’t feel right at the time. I felt like screaming from the rooftops, but my emotions were in the drivers seat at that point.

I wouldn’t say I all the way through it. I’m really not sure where I will be a year from now, 5 years from now. Who really knows. But I am finding some peace where I am now. Its definitely tough at times, but I can find it when I look for it.

But thanks for the warm welcome and kind words from all of you.

[Tom]

From one recovering Mormonaholic to another, welcome. Your story is a very powerful one and I’m glad that you are willing to share it with us.

On a side note, I really enjoyed meeting you and your wife at several of the past Utah Co RTG meetings. I hope to see and hear from both of you again.

I wish you peace and success in the future.

[Tom]

Heber13 wrote:

I really enjoyed hearing Tom’s completely unbiased and non-emotional response!

…but I have to respectfully disagree.

Every place you go to has good and bad…including Utah (BYU would be the good…Utes the bad).

Hey, I didn’t say I was unbiased. Heber, you can disagree, even respectfully if you wish, but you would be incorrect. Utah is down right awesome. And yes, I am bias and emotionally connected. You would be too if you gave it a chance.

And to your (BYU would be the good…Utes the bad). All I have to say is, 13-0, baby. 13-0.

[Tom]

Don’t listen to anyone who tells you to not live in Utah. I have lived in Colorado, Nevada, Illinois, Missouri, Iowa and of course Utah. Utah is the best of all of them, bar none.

Besides, we are the home of the undefeated Utah Utes! What else could you ask for really?

[Tom]

The church put out a Mormon Identity Podcast on this topic. I don’t think that they address the topic as directly as I would like, but I thought that some of you here might find it interesting.

The Only True and Living Church – Podcast

[Tom]

Truth can be seen differently from different perspectives. I have been trying (unsuccessfully at times) to redesign my thinking away from the black and white mentality.

Is the church true? At times I do hope it is, but it doesn’t really matter to me anymore.

Have I ever wanted to leave the church? Absolutely.

So do you think you will someday? No, I don’t. I’m a Mormon. Even if I left the church I would still think of myself as a Mormon. So why would I leave then if I’m always going to be a Mormon? Besides, someone needs to sit in the back pew.

[Author]

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