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Obviously, my situation differs from your own on many levels. Still, your thoughts hit close to home several times.

Your DH responding, “No, I’m just happy the way I am,” sounds horribly familiar. When I first tried to explain to Silas how important it was to me to have these conversations, that I need to talk about these things, his knee jerk response was, “But, I need to not talk about these things.” (Luckily, he didn’t verbalize it at the time. He told me this later, when he realized that it was just that–a knee jerk response.) Also, he’s certainly told me that whether I can understand it or not, he really is happy with his current situation.

I also, unfortunately, identify with your last paragraph. I find apathy revolting. The fact that my SO aspires to be apathetic towards religion is really hard for me to swallow. While, on some level, I may wish that Silas would come around to my way of thinking about the church, that’s not really what it comes down to. I just want him to care. I want decisions made in regards to religion to be important to him. At the same time, I end up asking myself like you, “Am I just being arrogant?” I mean, do I really want him to relive his past pains? Do I really want him to experience what I’ve been putting myself through for over a year now? That seems cruel.

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Welcome, What?. The community aspect of the church has been at times a pulling and at others a pushing factor for me. I find that the church is, in many ways, my community. They are the tribe I identify most closely with. At the same time, I don’t want to feel separate from the larger community of wherever I may live. Working on it…

I hope that you find the StayLDS community a safe haven, or that it may otherwise meet some of your needs. Again, welcome!

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sidenote:

jmb wrote:

and this is because they are afraid of being proven wrong

Quote:

I disagree on this point. I don’t think it’s because they are afraid of being proven wrong. Rather, I like to think that they’ve wizened up a bit. Really, what spiritual good do such pronouncements bring to the church? Nada.

Now back to your regularly scheduled PR thread.

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Jmb-

The thing is, I feel like he did just what you described–started questioning an then just landed on the other side of the coin. Back at stage 3, just on the black side of “black and white.” I agree with everything you’ve said in so far as it being important to embrace uncertainty. I would add embracing ambiguity, paradox and ambivalence. The thing is, he knows how I feel and simply doesn’t agree. A life full of ambivalence does not sound appealing to him. He’s certain the church isn’t true and pretty certain there is no God (if there is a God, that god is cruel.)

He recognizes that the gospel has positive affects in others’ lives and is glad of that. He doesn’t want to antagonize the church or it’s members. He’s not anti, he’s apathetic. Or, at least, he would like to be apathetic. How can I come in and say, “I’m sorry, but that’s not the way you’re supposed to grow. You took a step backwards. Come with me and let’s find a better way together.” That sounds horribly condescending to me, and I am trying terribly hard to not feel that way. I don’t want to feel like the path I have chosen is better than the one he has.

Please understand, I’m not trying to counter you here. Rather, I am expressing my concerns… and frustrations. Likely, I’ve misinterpreted what you were trying to say. Will you help me understand better?

I love Silas, and he’s helped me to become a better, more kind, loving and understanding person. We’re definitely working on the whole communication thing. Also, the references to Psych made me smile. Although he doesn’t want to pursue it through his graduate studies, Silas’s undergrad degree is in psych. fun stuff.

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Thanks Ray,

Your number one is right on. The thing is, I think he’d hoped/planned to never have to “deal with it at some point.” Luckily, he’s beginning to see that for the sake of our relationship, and for the sake of one day raising a family he’s going to need to face these things. I wish that he felt the need to face them for his own sake, and not just because of how the decisions affect others. But… I don’t know.

With number two, are there any articles/studies or the like that you could direct me to in regards to religious disharmony vs religious differences. I’ve searched for information before but haven’t ever really found anything that I found particularly compelling or helpful.

As for a moderator, I’ve considered that before. BYU offers free couples counseling as long as one is a student. I think pre-marital counseling is something that all couples should participate in, especially those who have significant differences such as Silas & me. That being said, I am a bit hesitant to try counseling as long as we’re pre-engagement. I guess I feel like the therapist would be sitting there thinking, “Why are you putting so much work into this? Why don’t you two just split up and find people who are more similar?” I suppose I should just get over that though…

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I am on the edge of a much broader social movement. I suppose I feel that it is more my responsibility is more to the others on the edge than it is to those in the center. If I seek to disillusion the mainstay members of the community, then what good does that do?

I guess I don’t feel that the church is being deceptive so much as choosing which parts of the story they want to polish. The rest of the story is there, and people are free to access it. If that access was barred somehow, I would be more concerned. Then again, I think that a decent argument could be made that access is barred via social mechanisms… But, that brings us back to whether other socio-religious groups we could join would really be better.

I’ll try to think on this some more, and continue to follow the conversation. I agree with a lot of the concerns you’ve posted on, jmb. I guess I’ve been keeping quiet because I feel like my brain is fried and so I’ve temporarily turned my attention on to more immediate or emotional concerns. This could be a good topic to reawaken myself to some of the problems that originally brought me here.

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I was re-reading over these comments tonight, and wanted to say thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts. I tried setting a boundary of sorts, and asked my parents to please not ask whether I had attended church or not for one month. When I call home tomorrow will be the end of that month. I am a little nervous about that phone call tomorrow,and am hoping that I can successfully both show love/appreciation and maintain the boundaries that I need right now. I’m sure I’ll read over the suggestions here again. Thank you.

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Morzen wrote:

I say these things right now…

love it

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Even when I have been uncertain in my concept of God, I have still found myself delivering prayers. I remember one prayer in particular that I offered up to, “Dear Heavenly Father, Mother, God, Nothing, or whatever may exist to hear this prayer.” That prayer was a rather angry and tearful one. I wasn’t really offering the prayer because I needed God to hear it. I was offering the prayer because I needed to release it.

At times I pray to commune with my God. At other times I pray to call down strength. Some times I pray in order to clear my mind and open myself. I pray because it is an effective form of meditation for me. Some of these reasons have more to do with God or engender a closer relationship with God than others. Some of my reasons for prayer really have little to do with God.

I’m not sure if this is really much support to you. I feel like we are coming from different perspectives. I don’t know that I am looking to God “answers.” The idea of answers existing…for anything…is more something that keeps me at a distance from our community of saints. But, this is a safe place to exchange understandings. So, I would love to know what you mean by “God answers our prayers.” What sort of answers do you mean? How does answers play a role in your (anyone?s) faith?

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Thank you for sharing, promom. I especially enjoyed your list of the things that you want, and your perspective.

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Thank you, Valoel, for being willing to share such personal examples. I will be turning the thoughts you’ve shared over in my head and heart for the next few weeks. We’ll see what turns up.

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Tom-

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. A year is a long time to keep quiet. I have only been on this path for a year and some months now. I agree that the end I am searching for is to freely love and serve. I am not quite sure how I will get there. I suppose we’ll see. Thank you for reading the respect in my question. I feel there is respect entailed there for the church, it’s members, and myself, amongst others.

Valoel-

Thank you for your careful consideration. I read your comments as gently probing, not condescending. I am going to see what I can do with those thoughts.

Gabe- Thanks for commiserating. It means a lot just to know that others identify. Let us know how it goes next week.

Ray- I hear Ohio is a great place to live. I had a coworker once, while I was working in New Hampshire, who was from Ohio. She mostly raved about the countryside, bluegrass music and disc golf. How could such a blessed place not host excellent wards?

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I feel like I should post an addendum here. I didn’t want to just post a laundry list of “things I didn’t like at church yesterday.” That’s why I kept the OP so short. I figure that I know how to, intellectually, respond to each of those frustrating points. So, in an attempt to steer the conversation a bit:

***Have you ever experienced a period of time when you felt you could not attend church “with an open heart?” How long did this last? Did you identify the reasons why? What helped? What hurt?

***How do you deal with teachings that are central to the gospel, yet you find to be damaging? Perhaps I should move this to my previous thread (and if asked to, I will.) But, for example, I feel that the teaching of eternal families is dangerous insofar that it encourages divisions within interfaith families and encourages women (or men) to stay in abusive relationships. Is this just a matter of comparative advantage, where the advantages of teaching about eternal families outweigh the negatives? Are there other teachings that you find damaging? How have you negotiated those?

Honestly, I think that my feelings spring up from just not being used to all of this yet. I’m not used, yet, to hearing Joseph being deified or hearing manipulation in the words of leaders or experiencing frustration at the “role” of eternal families. So, those things still strike at me. On the other hand, while I am frustrated that a BYU professor’s blog got shut down because my friend and the Prof’s TA were blogging about Heavenly Mother, I’ve gotten used to that. Yes, it upsets me, but it doesn’t hit so deeply. I’ve come to expect the university to do things that I disagree with or even think are hurtful. I still think it’s a good university overall. Maybe I just need time to come to a place like that with the church. Although, on the other hand, do I really want to desensitize myself to these things?

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Valoel- I think the “pain” came from how it seems every time I’ve attended with an open heart, instead of feeling uplifted, I feel pulled down. I think that was honestly the most difficult aspect of the day. Otherwise:

-The focus on sacrament meeting was largely on the “natural man.” The idea that we are all horrible sinners that need God is prevalent in other denominations, and it is not one that at this time in my life I find particularly uplifting.

-The HC essentially used a lot of scare tactics (live the gospel and go to the celestial kingdom, choose otherwise and live unhappily in the eternities.)

-HC quoted from Mormon Doctrine. Honestly, a little thing, but it’s what broke open the floodgates. Before that I’d been a little on edge perhaps, but that’s when my internal dialogue really started to open up.

-Honestly, Idon’t remember much of what the HC had to say. At the time, when I tried to reflect on why I was upset, the only things I could come up with was that I felt manipulated and that I simply did not believe the things he was teaching, nor the way he was teaching it.

-In GD, the relationship between Jospeh and Emma was held up as an ideal to aspire to.

-A woman shared a personal comment about her mother. Her mother had been a great example by staying in an abusive relationship because “it was her only chance at an eternal family.”

-Discussion on how dangerous it is to think that we are different or an exception. I agree. However, is it not also dangerous to think that we are all the same and all have the same spiritual needs? Typically, in my experience, the latter is how all things are taught.

-As a HT discussed his wedding plans, I was reminded of how the church seems to place greater stresses on interfaith families, rather than drawing them closer together. I feel that membership in the church should draw you closer to your family members no matter their faith. However, that does not seem to be the case.

(In particular, this man was talking about how the desire to have your family members join the church can be “all consuming.” He converted as a teenager, served a mission and will be married in a few months. They will be accompanied in the temple by only his best friend’s family, her parents and her grandparents. They don’t want the ring ceremony to oveshadow the ordinances or seem like a “second wedding.” So, their ring ceremony will consist of the bishop giving a talk on testimonies, the newlyweds each sharing their testimony, and then simply exchanging the rings.)

But, mostly, it just hurts that it feels unsafe to approach church attendance “with an open heart.”

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beautiful!

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