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good ol’ BYU, here

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I am glad you have been able to find a bit of peace, magicmusician.

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Valoel- I really like the “It is just a church” mantra. I’d honestly never thought of that before, which seems strange now.

Nonny- That’s what I’m trying to learn how to do right now, to set the boundaries. I think that I am starting to learn, as I didn’t feel compelled to pipe up when my father started in on “It’s all true or all false” and how I should’ve worked all this out when I was 14, just like Joseph did. I feel like it’s finally starting to dawn, “They don’t have to understand. It’s okay. They care about me, and that’s enough.” I was able to just listen, and thank him for his concern. I didn’t have to explain that even if I stay with the church I won’t see it as an all or nothing dichotomy. I didn’t have to explain that I feel I built a good foundation during my teen years and that my wanderings now are an extension of that, rather than a sign of weakness. That’s perhaps a slightly different sort of boundary than you are speaking of. It was more a boundary that I didn’t need to cross. Hopefully with some more time, I’ll learn how to place boundaries for others. Those’re little more intimidating.

Thanks HappyMom- I agree, I also think that our Heavenly Parents want the church to be a blessing. I suppose part of that is me allowing it to be a blessing, which might at times mean stepping back a bit.

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Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions. I visited my home ward today for the first time in a little while, and it went pretty well. Sacrament meeting was a really lovely “Musical Testimony Meeting” where anyone could come up and bare a short testimony and hymn, then we would all sing the hymn. Relief Society was “The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy” lesson. I just borrowed a pen from a friend and scribbled notes to myself and tried to focus on keeping calm. I kept in mind that I don’t have to agree with peoples opinions, and that’s okay. I wish that I could of offered a comment to try and steer the conversation in a more charitable direction, but I was too jittery and distracted to really come up with something productive to offer. But, I tried. Maybe another day.

All in all though, it was one of my better days at church, and I didn’t feel the need to leave any of my lessons, which is nice. I also found that I was comfortable talking with the other members and chatting with them in a non-doctrinal, friendly way, which was nice. I feel like I confuse people, because when I attend I act as if I’m there all the time (talking with the people I know by name and drawing out the ones I don’t by asking them about themselves) but then at the same time am inactive and not there often. Oh well…

It also helped that I attended an activist’s conference at the U yesterday, where I made some connections with other BYU students who share my interests and concerns, as well as reconnected with some people I’ve met through the SL Quaker meetings. Having been in a social environment where I was somewhere on a scale from “normal” to “conservative” the day before, I think also helped me feel more calm at church today.

Ray- I’ve made a pact to not read blogs until I’ve caught up with some assignments. So, it may be a little while, but that’ll certainly be at the top of my to-read list. Thank you, in advance!

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I have a professor who has been encouraging us to learn more about McKay and the development of the church as a global entity. I will be picking up RSR today, and don’t know entirely how I’ll react to reading that lengthy tome. It seems that perhaps this book could be a breath of fresh air to follow up RSR. I’ll put it on my reading list. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Hi NotSure2008,

I am not married, and if you’ve read the other thread on interfaith relationships then you have some of an idea on where I am coming from. Can a relationship between a Mormon and non-Mormon work? I don’t know. But, I’ve thought about it a lot. The following are some of my thoughts in regards to if I were to stay LDS but marry a nonmember:

-I would find it hard to not be able to share things, such as the endowment ceremony, with my husband. (Although, apparently there are many who are comfortable sharing more than I would have previously thought was appropriate. So, perhaps this wouldn’t be such a barrier.)

-The church is both religious and social. I would need to be selective in what callings I accept and be careful to make sure that church time was not infringing on family time. This would be more of an issue for men.

-No matter what I believe about my marriage, when my children go to Primary, they will likely be taught that they need to convert Daddy in order to be an eternal family. They will be taught that our family is “wrong.” (I realize this sounds harsh. But, well, it seems to be the reality in the wards I’ve attended.)

-If Silas and I chose to marry, we would seek out other interfaith couples. Especially, we would seek out couples where one is LDS and both are happy. If we can find a couple that has older children who they have raised successfully that would be pretty fantastic…

-Raising children will be difficult. Everyone will point this out to you and it can get annoying, but it is true and needs to be considered. However, if you choose to marry then obviously you have common values. I imagine this would be a good place to start. Ethics are not limited to the religious sphere.

-I have spoken with women who hope that their husband will some day convert. While I am trying to understand the mindset (of hoping your loved ones will change) I simply cannot imagine being in a relationship like that. I will not marry a man hoping that he will either convert or leave the church. Similarly, I would not want to marry a man who wanted me to either convert or leave the church.

Anyhow, those are some of my thoughts. I think that Mormon-Other relationships are more difficult than other interfaith relationships due to both the teachings of the church and cultural norms. Ray’s statistics make sense.

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You are not alone. I am currently a student at BYU and there are students currently here who identify as either gay or lesbian. (I would imagine that there are also individuals who identify as bi, perhaps as transgendered, but I have not personally met these individuals.) Partly due to the influence of these men and women, the BYU Honor Code was recently altered so that the language would be more inclusive for gay students. Also, an art piece an art piece was recently shown at BYU that focused on the LGBT community here. (The post is titled “Censorship Sucks.” The piece was quickly returned back to the art show where it was being shown, citing “miscommunications” for why it was originally pulled.) You can see that piece on the artists’ blog: http://areyou1too.blogspot.com/2008/12/censorship-sucks.html” class=”bbcode_url”>http://areyou1too.blogspot.com/2008/12/censorship-sucks.html

There are resources for gay LDS, including blogs, books and therapy. However, I will defer to others who have a more intimate knowledge of these resources and their strengths and weaknesses, rather than recommend them myself. If nobody speaks up, however, then I will go ahead and share those with you.

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I’ve tried, a couple of times now, to compose a response to follow up on my original posting. I am having some trouble gathering up my thoughts and phrasing them such so they’ll strike where I want them to. So, while I continue trying to eke out a follow up that more precisely explains my concerns, I’ll go ahead and share a few clarifications. Some are based on the earlier post, while others are more directly responses. Thanks again to everyone who has commented. I appreciate your input.

1-My SO, Silas, balked at being introduced as an atheist. In the interest of accuracy, he is more of a semi-agnostic maltheist with aspirations of apatheism. For convenience, I’ll call him “irreligious” from here on out, which carries less baggage than “atheist.”

2- Valoel brings up the question of my parents’ background and how that may be influencing things. I am in my early 20’s; however, my parents married in their late 30’s/early 40’s. Both of my parents are, independently, converts to the church. While they converted under wildly different circumstances, both look to their conversion as the marking point and reason for a dramatic change in their life. As their daughter, by looking outside the church for peace I am not only, as musicman observed, “potentially rejecting everything they hold sacred and even rejecting the bonds that they believe hold their family together,” but also I am accepting the very life that they rejected, a life that caused them much pain.

3- When I entitled this thread “Interfaith Families…,” I think that perhaps I cast the net too widely. There are many concerns in regards to interfaith marriages However, what I would like to focus on here is the relationships that exist within interfaith families. I feel trapped by the pain that I am causing my parents and the stress this has put on our relationship. How does one nourish a healthy relationship with loved ones who sincerely believe that your choices are very bad ones?

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Just a quick note to thank everyone for their input. Things got pretty busy around here, but I do plan to return to this thread and reply. Thank you again.

-Trill

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I find that often times when I speak up in church the experience is rather disorienting. On the one hand, these are good experiences, because often my comments are responded to and supported in some way. On the other hand, they are negative because I wonder how or whether I should try to carve out a place amongst people who seem to think so differently than me.

In a BYU Singles ward, we were discussing ( I believe it was Mosiah 4) and the class was going off on tangents at the beginning that would have been hurtful to singles who had sexual troubles in their past or present and then towards the end of the class was focusing more or less on how to rationalize our wealth. I felt that the class was vastly overlooking the part of the chapter that spoke most clearly to me, and also overlooking the realities of life in poorer countries, or even of the poor within our own. I wanted to speak up, but was nervous. Especially, there was a guy sitting just a few seats down from me who had worked extensively in South Africa and whom I had talked with before. I suspected that he shared my uneasiness, but I couldn’t pick anything up in his facial expressions or demeanor to indicate such. Maybe I was just being oversensitive? I went ahead and offered my comment to the class anyways. Afterwards, the same guy approached me and thanked me for speaking up. Also, the RS President, who had seemed frustrated from a few rows in front of me (She had tried to offer a few comments in the earlier part of the lesson to try and sort of redirect the conversation) also approached me after class to thank me for my comment in that class and others in general.

In the same ward, a different day, the Stake President was holding a special meeting with the sisters. Sharing that the church seems to be losing a lot of their women during the transition from YW to RS, he asked for our thoughts on why this might be. After several others had shared their thoughts, I offered some things that I had found particularly difficult in the transition. The SP basically responded by becoming defensive and denying the existence of my experience. I was a bit taken aback but just sort of shrugged it off. Later the same day I was being set apart for a new calling. A member of the bishopric who had been sitting in on the meeting with his wife sort of asked some questions along the lines of, “So, how was RS today?” I gave some noncommittal response, not wanting to seem frustrated. He then basically replied, “Yeah, you kind of got your head bit off. I don’t think that the SP understood what you were saying.”

Another single student’s ward, in a Gospel Principles class, we were discussing Missionary Work. I shared some of my thoughts on missionary work. I wanted to share these because I felt they were important, but also because I was trying to figure out whether they really could fit into a missionary program. (Basically, I commented something about being open to learn about others’ faith. Not always just trying to offer our own.) The teacher responded by looking sort of confused and flustered and then responded in a way that sort of twisted my words and redirected them to something that I would imagine he thought fit the lesson better. A little later, another girl in the class offered some comments that supported my own. This girl was my visiting teacher and knew that I attended other churches. So, I don’t know if that influenced her speaking up or not. Still, it was appreciated.

I appreciate the support I have received in my wards when I have chosen to speak up. Still, it is disorienting:

In the first instance, although I received support from the other members, it was strange that my comment was an odd or redirectional one. Basically, the main body of the class seemed excited to talk about things that I felt were directly in opposition to the teachings of the gospel. While I appreciate the supportive comments and thanks offered, it troubles me that our hopes to make the discussion more inclusive, sensitive and aware were not the norm. When I visit other churches where the conversation is more centered on love and inclusivity, it makes me wonder. Even if I am receiving support, why should I stay where my voice is the odd one?

In the second instance, I was just really caught off guard. I have competed in oratorical events for several years and feel that I am fairly aware of how vocal intonation and word choice can affect what people hear when I speak. Even if I don’t always control my voice perfectly or choose the perfect wording, I can usually go back and figure out where the mistake was made. In this particular instance, I had made a point to speak carefully and make sure that my comments would not come across in a threatening or antagonistic manner. I guess that was why I was able to shrug it off; I had done my best. Still, it is disorienting to be so careful and give exactly what they are asking for and still be forcefully brushed aside.

In the final example, I eventually had to just leave the lesson and cry outside our ward building for a little while before I could return. I was truly trying to determine whether my beliefs were compatible within the framework of Mormonism. I was allowing myself to be vulnerable by asking questions or offering comments for others to respond to. I wanted their honest opinions and understandings. Still, it hurt to have the responses of the vast majority of those surrounding me to be, “No, no you can’t really believe that,” or otherwise corrective in nature.

I apologize for the length. In short, those are my experiences in regards to speaking up and keeping quiet. I appreciate Hawkgrrrl’s question of, “What is the purpose of speaking up?” and agree with Ray’s thoughts on paying attention to inflection and phrase choice. I appreciate these both as a way to examine past experiences of when I have spoken up and to keep in mind as future comments & questions bubble up in future classes.

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KM-

Thank you for the clarification. Perhaps my definition of honesty is too wide, or there may be a different word to more precisely describe what I mean in this context. To me, saying everything I think all the time would not be honest because it would harm my relationships with others. That which is selfish and damaging is not honest, because there is a greater good inside of me. It is that greater good that I want to be honest to.

I really like what you say about the Golden Rule informing love. I hadn’t thought of it that way before.

Thanks for sharing.

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A professor suggested that I read the book “A Thoughtful Faith,” edited by Phillip L Barlow. The book is a compilation of essays by scholars of the humanities bend who have chosen to stay LDS. The foreword indicates that there is a similar book out there focusing on scientific scholars, but I haven’t been able to find it. As I read these essays, I found myself falling across a whole spectrum of agreeing to disagreeing and nuancing arguments put forth by the authors to fit my own understanding.

I had been told many times growing up that you shouldn’t read dissenting opinions or interact too closely with people falling away from the church because you would get caught up in all that and such would be damaging to your testimony. Becoming one of those people you aren’t supposed to associate with and starting down a path that could possibly separate me from the church was scary. Finding that I wouldn’t be swept away by every line of argumentation or accept every offer of “another way” was empowering. I still choose my literature and how I discuss topics with people carefully. However, I now have greater confidence in making those choices.

Also, for me I feel that starting this with a non-threatening book, one written from a faithful perspective, was helpful. I was quite scared by all the doubts and questions bubbling up around me. Finding this greater confidence allowed me to approach questions and individuals (myself included) in a less guarded, more trusting, manner.

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Thank you very much Valoel for hosting and John Dehlin for making available the Mormon Stories podcasts. I was present for the recording of one of these, but had missed Dr. Ted Lyon’s presentation. When my roommate came home and told me all about it I was very disappointed! I was hoping to find this podcast online eventually, and that’s how I found StayLDS. Dr. Lyon was my faculty adviser prior to his calling to serve in Chile. He is an excellent professor and was always very open with us as students. Prof. Lyon was also the first individual to encourage me to serve a mission, “You should serve a mission. We need more Spanish speaking sisters.” Even though I was already doubting my membership in the church at this point, it was refreshing to hear someone actually tell me, a sister, that I should serve a mission. The comment came across in such a way that I didn’t feel pressured or anything. Rather, it helped me to feel valued, equal to my brothers in the faith.

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Hi Zlatan,

Like you, I have been newly poking around here as well. As a female, I can’t really offer much on giving blessings. However, I can offer the experience of one who has only received blessings and only ever been taught to receive blessings. I have always found priesthood blessings of the ordinary every-day kind to be very comforting. (Patriarchal blessing is another animal all together, but everyday blessings, I’m good there!) A few months ago, when I was planning to leave the country for the first time, and I was going by myself, I sought out a priesthood blessing. I was very much in the middle of all my doubts, questions and concerns, including concerns about the priesthood. Still, I had always felt peace, and had always connected priesthood blessings with good, comforting, experiences. It’s not that I think that they have any magical power to grant me safety while I am gallivanting across an unknown country. They are more like a marker. A way for me, in a formalized way, to mark, “What I am about to embark on is important to me, and I want to seek the guidance of God as I embark on this journey.” That journey can be a healing process, new year, trip, thought process, or any number of things.

Now, granted, I may not fall under the category of a “true believing sister.” Still, I would like to share my thoughts on,

kupord maizzed wrote:

…sometimes I even start thinking about what to say beforehand….I have strong doubts the actual authority of the priesthood I bear had any effect (I’ve never felt directed by the spirit in giving a blessing

First, I have no concern with a brother thinking over a blessing before offering it. Even pre-faith-crisis I would not have found this offensive, as long as he giving the blessing was facing the entire process from preparation through blessing with an open and broken heart. As one receiving a blessing, I feel like an active participant. I am receiving the blessing, and those things that speak to me are true, other things (true or not) may fall to the wayside.

My second thought of this deals more directly with my understanding of s/he receiving the blessing as an active participant. One of the things that I truly find beautiful about the gospel, as taught by the LDS, is the absolute dependence that we have upon each other as a spiritual family. I realize that others here may find that principal offensive, but for me it is lovely. When I ask for a blessing, I am asking for aid in receiving and interpreting a connection with God in a particular and ritualistic manner. There are many many ways that I can ask people for aid in this, and a priesthood blessing is just one of them. It is one way that I particularly tend to find strength, and thus continue to participate in. I am not concerned that a blessing be perfect, I am not concerned that you be the mouthpiece of God. I am concerned that you care enough about me as a fellow sister to minister to me in this particular way.

I am not sure if all of that makes sense. Please feel free to ask for clarification. It will help me to order my thoughts better and hopefully offer something to someone else. Basically, what I am trying to say is that I view priesthood blessings as having two functions. The primary function is to sustain and bind together the human family. The secondary function is to commune with God, which I believe stems from the first.

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Thank you, everyone, for the warm welcome!

Nonny- Accepting that my belief will continue to change has been important to me. As for that diploma, point well taken . I visited my bishop about 4 months ago and we seem to have worked out an agreement that works for both of us.

Kupord- I am curious how you would differentiate between “honest” and “right?” I really like your corner of the garden analogy. My, “Yeah, I should stay with the church,” days tend to stem from a similar sentiment. However, I tend to view the garden as communal, and it can be difficult when all the other gardeners want to use entirely different methods of fertilizing, pruning and the like.

Valoel- Thank you. I really like how you express

Valoel wrote:

we are here to talk about the idea of staying in the LDS Church right now.

I may not know where I will end up. However, I really do what to explore what it would mean to me to Stay LDS. And mean to God. And mean to my loved ones.

Over the next week or so I’ll try to start throwing a few dilemmas up and otherwise participating. Thank you, again. I look forward to getting to know y’all.

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