[turinturambar]

The feminization of Church is a real concern for a lot of men. I read this book a few years ago, and it made a lot of sense to me: http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Heart-Discovering-Secret-Mans/dp/0785268839 Read through the description and reviews.

[turinturambar]

From the Guide to the Scriptures:

Quote:

Apostasy. A turning away from the truth by individuals, the Church, or entire nations.

From “Apostasy,” True to the Faith, (2004),13–14:

Quote:

When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy….Periods of general apostasy have occurred throughout the history of the world….We now live in a time when the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. But unlike the Church in times past, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. The scriptures teach that the Church will never again be destroyed (see D&C 138:44; see also Daniel 2:44). Although there will not be another general apostasy from the truth, we must each guard against personal apostasy.

The 2010 CHI operationalizes (defines for application) apostasy as:

1. Repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the church or its leaders

2. Repeatedly teaching for church doctrine that which is not church doctrine, after being corrected by bishop of higher authority

3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects after being corrected

4. Formally joining another church and advocating its teachings

In my mind, apostasy is a continuum–nearly everyone is an has turned their back on one truth or another, and does so on a regular basis. The key question then is: where do I have to be on that continuum before the warning bells start going off for my priesthood leaders whose job it is to protect the flock? I think I am with a lot of folks on the edges of mormondom who feel a great loyalty to truth. What do we do when our leaders teach things that are not true? (e.g., I know very well that masturbation does not cause homosexuality) Do we just “shut up”? That seems to be the most wise thing to do if we want to Stay LDS. Although it can cause moral dilemmas at times!

[turinturambar]

I believe heartily in supporting our leaders by helping them avoid mistakes. Perhaps this HPGL later had a private talk with the bishop to point out the folly of such a list as this. Perhaps not. Either way, I can see a gung ho bishop produce such a list with good intentions; however…

Although I might agree with many items on this list, (including a positive approach to the WoW), it is nothing but a hedge around the law. These things can backfire, bigtime. Having a church full of people who descend into mental health problems because they feel guilty over tiny things is one unavoidable result, IMO.

I believe that we can all individually be called to live a higher law by the Holy Spirit when God feels we’re ready; but it comes through an individual prompting that does not apply to others. Turning these promptings into a list and handing it out is at best asking others to live commandments that were meant to be individual, and at worst teaching for doctrine the word of man.

[turinturambar]

SilentDawning wrote:

It makes me sad, testimony-barren sometimes, and occasionally, a bit depressed, but I don’t see the awe-inspiringness anymore…not when the chips are down. The church appears to act corporate whenever its own interests are up against the individual members. Just my take though. Perhaps others can help you restore its place as an inspiring divine organization.

But perhaps others have found a better way…that was beaten out of my long ago. But I am happier now that I see the church less of an awe-inspiring, moving entity.

Maybe this is the core of my StayLDS issues. I just can’t see myself devoting three hours on a Sunday to volunteer for a corporation. I feel like I took a covenant to consecrate for the building of Zion, and I need to see an organization that is focused on building Zion for me to be passionate about consecration again. And that includes going to Church, and serving in my EQP.

[turinturambar]

Q. Did you hear about the cow that tried to jump over a barbed-wire fence?

A. Udder destruction!

[turinturambar]

Old-Timer wrote:

turinturambar, I am providing links to four recent talks by President Uchtdorf:

“The Love of God” (http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/the-love-of-god?lang=eng&query=%22uchtdorf%22+%28name%3a%22Dieter+F.+Uchtdorf%22%29) – 2009 [The one I referenced in my comment]

“Christ-Like Attributes” – The Wind Beneath Our Wings” (http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/10/christlike-attributes-the-wind-beneath-our-wings?lang=eng&query=%22culture%22+%22uchtdorf%22+%28name%3a%22Dieter+F.+Uchtdorf%22%29)

“Of Things that Matter Most” (http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/of-things-that-matter-most?lang=eng)

“The Merciful Obtain Mercy” (http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-merciful-obtain-mercy?lang=eng&query=%22sin+differently%22)

I really love that man.

Thanks. I’ll get reading. I really love him, too.

[turinturambar]

In my master’s program, I was heavily inculcated into critical theory–critical feminist theory, critical race theory, critical queer theory, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory I have since come to challenge many of the aspects of critical theory, but it is still a bit instinctual for me to analyze situations through a critical theoretical lens.

That having been said, the current situation in the Church with regards to girls/women and clothing/modesty seems to be less about the spiritual foundations of modesty, and more about control of women. Let’s gets rid of this patriarchal practice! Men, let us stand up and hand this issue back to women, in whose court this ball rightfully belongs.

[turinturambar]

SilentDawning wrote:

The idealist focuses his idealism on his personal character, and developing tolerance for the corporation. While at the same time altering his relationship with the corporation. Reframe the relationship as volunteer-corporation rather than member-church. That will likely shift a lot of behavior and priorities in your life, as well as expectations.

I am anti-corporate, and even anti-capitalist. I don’t want to be a volunteer for a corporation. I want to be a disciple of Christ. I want to be an acolyte for a holy mystery. I want to be a priest in a kingdom of priests. I want to be swept up in something deeply moving and spiritual. And lately, I’m not getting those things from the Church. It makes me sad.

[turinturambar]

Old-Timer wrote:

I don’t want the top leadership sending out messages to be read from the pulpit about silly little things like this – or have them addressed in General Conference explicitly. Pres. Uchtdorf telling us to stop obsessing over cultural details equals teaching principles. That’s all I want. I like that the Church is moving away from pulpit announcements about everything.

Can you provide the E Uchtdorf quote (or quotes)?

I agree about calling this a “silly little thing”. However, when “silly little things” are being made into yardsticks to measure other members’ faithfulness, I think this a problem that should be addressed. And not just once. Continually and unambiguously until the culture changes. These yardsticks are preventing us from becoming Zion.

BTW: In some ways, this is a “silly BIG thing.” Have you followed the BYU goings on about this statement? BYU does not allow caffeinated drinks to be sold on campus, including the MTC. I think the fallout from this is that BYU will probably change this policy now. This seems to be the second time that a statement by the PR department has caused a massive shift in the thinking/behavior of the members of the church (the first being the press releases around the Randy Bott debacle). I’d much rather have these things handled internally before the are handled externally by a PR department…Ugh…..

[turinturambar]

SilentDawning wrote:

Where can I read about the clarification on caffeine drinks? Is this recent?

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-news–getting-it-right-august-29?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LDSNewsRoomTop15+%28RSS%3A+LDS+Newsroom%29

It’s down the page a ways.

[turinturambar]

So I guess the “StayLDS” question is:

When the idealist in me wants the Church to act like a religion, how do I make peace with its corporate behavior?

[turinturambar]

Here is my current thinking on doctrine:

Our leaders are not perfect, and their anointing doesn’t negate what they bring to the table in terms of talents, biases, weakness, strengths, etc. They see through a glass darkly, just as we do. I believe they are entitled to moments of clarity through the Holy Spirit, just as we are. Sometimes they teach truth; and sometimes they teach their own ideas.

So how do we know if a doctrine they teach is “of God” or is “of men”?

Wait for it…………Spiritual Triangulation!

1-Read the scriptures, listen to the words of the prophets

2-Study it out in our mind, and ask if it be right (pray) D&C 9

3-Experiment on the word–plant the seed; if it bears good fruit, it is a true doctrine; if it bears evil fruit, it is not of God–cast it out (Alma 32)

If a doctrine does not bear up under this kind of scrutiny, I think we can know that it is false doctrine. One of the beautiful things about pure mormonism is that we are given the gift of the Holy Ghost, and are told we don’t have to take the words of “authority” figures on an issue–we can study, and pray, and know for ourselves.

I’m afraid that a lot of mormons only rely on #1. Lately, we have been taught to rely only on leaders for guidance–which I have found to be a false doctrine.

Let’s take comments about our black brothers and sisters–as I have read statements made before the 1978 revelation, I have felt dark. I have felt they were wrong. When I plant them, they bear evil fruit that does not grow, but chokes out the good. Thus I have found them to be false doctrine, and I cast them out. I have no problem with the fact that these comments were made by the Lord’s anointed–I believe they were bringing their own personal biases into the issue and they were wrong. I don’t parade around criticizing them for it. I am grateful for the good things they did for the kingdom. But I won’t live by doctrines that don’t hold up to the scrutiny of triangulation. God gave us a brain, and the Holy Ghost, and prayer, and agency for a reason.

[turinturambar]

kmullin211984 wrote:

I really hope the gay thing doesn’t get in the way, but being here in Utah, that is the reaction I have gotten from a lot of Bishops. It seemed to me that whether you were living the law of chastity or not didn’t matter. Just the fact that you were gay was enough to keep you from the temple.

FWIW, I had five bishops in Utah, and none of them felt being gay was enough to keep me from the temple. Maybe that’s part of the roulette problem, though.

[turinturambar]

DBMormon wrote:

There is a distinct difference in how people are treated in the two boards and I just wanted all of you to know that while I am at a different end of the spectrum then many of you, you have been so kind and friendly, and welcoming. I just wanted to say thank you as your Christlike behavior very much shows through. While others see you as the fringe members it is apparent that in some areas you have the gospel mastered!

This is really nice, Bill. I agree completely about this site. Thanks, everybody, for making me feel welcome and valued.

[turinturambar]

“Then my head starts to spin.”

Imagine your head and heart spinning every day, 24/7 about it. We need more empathetic people like you.

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