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Heber13 wrote:wayfarer wrote:
We can accept that JS was inspired, yet understand that his revelations were influenced by prevailing folk wisdom.
…including where Native Americans came from.
Incidentally, I just finished
1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbusby Charles Mann, and I am currently reading 1493. I highly recommend these books. Featherina wrote:What I find somewhat odd is that tithing is always considered cash or monetary exchange.
What about time (which is money to many) & what about giving of talents…
This is a tough one. My wealth is definitely not monetary, and I feel God is just fine with that. I have a lot to give the kingdom, but it’s never gonna get a lot of money from me, simply because I don’t earn it, and I have chosen a profession that is not lucrative.
💡 If tithing isreally“consecration lite”, shouldn’t it also include time, talents, etc.? Just an idle musing… Yet we don’t send a child out hunting as soon as he is weaned. We teach him to hunt. There has to be “scaffolding” in between. I think it’s fair to ask “Where’s the beef?!” DBMormon wrote:Our Ward is planning a fireside on the subject title above. We plan to address the following issues so that Latter- Day saints might have a better view and better resources to handle the following issues
Same Sex Attraction–I’m going to send you my phone number in a PM. I am very knowledgeable on this subject, and would gladly answer any questions you have.
Parenting Youth to have a healthy view of Sexuality and still desire to resist sin–I really like Elder Holland’s talk “On Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments”. Although it is still heavy with “sin next to murder” stuff, it offers a credible theological perspective on sex and the Law of Chastity that can form the basis of a “testimony” of the Law of Chastity that isn’t all about “Thou Shalt Not”s
(BTW, Alma talks of “bridling our passions”, not taking the horse out back and shooting it.)
Healthy views on intimacy between a husband and a wife–There are some LDS books written in recent years on this topic that directly address the prudishness that some of us grow up with. I think the best Christian book on the topic is still “The Act of Marriage”.
Pornography–I really think it’s valuable to make a distinction between curiosity, lust, and using it to avoid relationship difficulties. “Why” people are looking at porn may be more enlightening and helpful for spiritual progress than “whether” they are. Addiction to porn is very real, but many people think they are addicted when in fact, they are not. I think there is a lot of unnecessary suffering in the church over this. The guilt heaped upon our men can be counterproductive, as it becomes the fuel for powerful cycles of porn abuse.
(BTW, I think there is a fair amount of porn online that is essentially a form of exhibitionism, but the majority of it is the result of some kind of exploitation. Understanding that the men and women in these pictures and videos are being exploited can help in seeing them as people, and helps to break the spell of lust)
Shame vs. Sorrow with sexual sin–Helping people to not feel ashamed about their bodies and their sexuality can be a big help. Also, the “sin next-to-murder” rhetoric creates toxic shame for a lot of people.
sexual abuse–I have no knowledge or experience on this one.
How to better understand and protect one’s family from the ills of Media–again, not a lot of knowledge or experience.
DBMormon wrote:My question…. are there any additional areas that should be discussed and also and ideas within each area that should be covered?
***Masturbation–Masturbation is not fornication or adultery, and we need to stop teaching that it is. It’s interesting to me that the current CHI does not even mention the word, and the term “self abuse” only appears once. Hmmm…. Also, just like pornography, I think it’s more important to get at the “why” than the “whether”. I used it for years to self-medicate the pain of being gay, and it was not good. Helping people to break out of this kind of relationship with masturbation is probably good.
FWIW, As a single man in my thirties with no current potential for marriage, I have jettisoned the idea that I shouldn’t ever masturbate. And ironically, I masturbate less than I used to as a result. Hmmm….
In general, dealing with all of these issues in one fireside is probably not realistic. I think developing healthy attitudes is the result of decades of frank conversations, and good role models.
I think satire can be very illuminating… The Book of Mormon musical has a song that relates to this: Quote:I got a feeling,
That you could be feeling,
A whole lot better than you feel today
You say you got a problem,
well thats no problem,
It’s super easy not to feel that way!
When you start to get confused because of thoughts in your head,
Don’t feel those feelings!
Hold them in instead
Turn it off, like a light switch
just go click!
It’s a cool little Mormon trick!
We do it all the time
When your feeling certain feels that just don’t feel right
Treat those pesky feelings like a reading light
and turn em off,
Like a light switch just go bap!
Really whats so hard about that?
Turn it off! (Turn it off!)
:clap: In all seriousness, I think a lot of the unwillingness of some of our brothers and sisters to talk about tough issues is coming from a place of fear (a defense mechanism) rather than a desire to leave us out in the cold. They don’t want to leave Fowler’s Stage 3, and thinking about this stuff is a one-way ticket to Stage 4. It’s too bad Stage 5 people don’t have neon signs that can let us know it’s OK to ask
themthe tough questions. Anyway, mrtoad4u, I think you’ve found a good place to vent and find answers. It’s gonna hurt, so just give it some time, and chip away at things with your brothers and sisters here.
:angel: hawkgrrrl wrote:Quote:I support local leaders by protecting them from themselves by not caving in to wrong-headed demands, right?
I think that this is a very important aspect of sustaining leaders, when done in a way that is respectful. The whole sustaining=unwavering agreement thing is very dangerous, IMHO.
Welcome. This is a good place to get comfort and advice. I’m about your age (I’m 37). I grew up in the church, and was implicitly (and maybe even explicitly) taught in young men’s, seminary, institute, on my mission, etc., that if I punched my card right (read scriptures, pray, church activity and service, mission, temple) I would avoid the big challenges in life. EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE in my generation was taught this. The corollary to this, of course, is that if you are experiencing major life challenges, you must have sinned or made a mistake. FALSE DOCTRINE!!!!! (wasn’t the Book of Job about this?)
The church can be hard on divorcees for the reason stated above.
If you’re interested in getting some support that’s not necessarily in the church, have you checked out any online forums for single dads with kids? It doesn’t necessarily get at the spiritual issues involved, but these men know what you’re going through.
This is a good place to work on your church-related questions.
Welcome!
I’ve been pondering on this talk for about a week, and my reaction to it has been emotionally complicated. I’ve been trying to respond for days. I’ll just hit two points: 1-I wish that he would have talked more about homosexual orientation not being a choice, and the theological and practical implications. I absolutely think that this is where we have to start to make the church safer for LGBTs. BTW the eunuch argument can be parsed into non-existence by people who just don’t want to believe that Jesus said anything about gay people.
“I’m here because I’ve watched good things come into people’s lives in the Bay Area, not because we’ve
innovatedon church doctrine, which we absolutely have not, but just because we’ve tried to open up the cultureof a few wards. “ This seems to be the central point of his talk–that argument that what church leadership in his area have done in not formally disciplining gay folks is not innovation–but a cultural change. He spends quite a bit of the talk discussing the finer points of formal disciplinary councils–when they are mandatory, vs. when they “may” be required. He seems to argue that being gay, or having same-sex relationships is not grounds for a mandatory disciplinary council.
I agree that making the church a safer place for LGBT folks includes tossing out the idea that formal church discipline must always be held in the case of same sex relationships. I do have a quibble with his argument, however. According to the 2010 CHI, disciplinary councils are mandatory in the case of patterns of serious transgression (homosexual behavior is considered a serious transgression in the previous section of the handbook). So if a priesthood leader interprets a same sex relationship as a pattern of serious transgression, he may believe that a council is mandatory. So, we’re back to square one on this one–it’s all a matter of how leaders will interpret “pattern of serious transgression”; in other words priesthood leader roulette.
I would personally love a culture of spontaneous “amens”, “hallelujahs”, and “hosannas” in the LDS church. As long as it didn’t become an affectation… Wow! What a great age group. I remember my days teaching high school very fondly. My favorite thing about it was the kids. My dad also teaches sunday school to this age and he loves it. I’m sure it will be a great experience. Old-Timer wrote:Quote:We lose our freedom of worship when someone, somewhere allows gay people to marry one another.I know that Elder Oaks, a former state supreme court justice, said as much.
Agree or disagree with Elder Oaks’ reasoning, the above statement is not an accurate summary of what he said. That, I believe, needs to be stressed.
Ray, I went back and read two addresses of E Oaks in recent years:
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/oaks-religious-freedom http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/elder-oaks-religious-freedom-Chapman-University On further reflection, my statement was definitely a glib restatement of popular LDS interpretation of E Oaks paragraph on the “Yogyakarta Principles” from the BYU/I talk. In short, it wasn’t very precise.
😳 Sorry!
HSAB–I am very sorry. I hope you know that you have many supporters here. It may not be much consolation right now, but there are many priesthood leaders who “get it” out there, and you may be working with one that doesn’t. Wayfarer-On the apostasy thing, it’s interesting that although murder and adultery have very specific definitions, apostasy is open to interpretation. It’s not well-defined in the CHI. That’s problematic.
Welcome kilgore! I have found the people here to be very compassionate and helpful. Many of the people here have a lot of experience to share in relating with family members RE: your changing views about the church. They have a lot of good advice and kindness.
You are definitely not alone!
