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About kissing…Paul says it four times: Romans 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
1 Thessalonians 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
2 Corinthians 13:12 Greet one another with an holy kiss.
1 Corinthians 16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss.
😮 We can make Paul say just about anything, can’t we!👿 On a more serious note, here are some of my thoughts:
A couple of years ago, I met with my Stake President. After telling him my entire situation, he asked me a question I have never heard in an interview. “What do
youwant?” I was taken aback. I had never really thought about it. The most important question to me up to that point was “What shouldI want?” I think I answered “Well, I want to stay in the church. I want to keep my covenants. I don’t like being alone, though. Some of my best times have been having men as roommates. A buddy to do stuff with every once and a while. A comforting presence in the background. I suppose I wish that I could have a buddy as a roommate for the rest of my life. But that isn’t really possible–my buddies should get married. They aren’t really complete without a wife. I can’t really find buddies right now, because the men who should be my buddies have wives, and kids, and don’t really have time for me.” One of my favorite talks by a GA is a talk about sex by Elder Holland.
http://www.familylifeeducation.org/gilliland/procgroup/Souls.htm shouldbe a sacrament. In spite of my powerful feelings about men, I believe that there is an inherent masculine and feminine in the universe that must be joined for perfection to be possible. So as much as want another man, I feel in some deep part of me that my “other half” is the
Ewig-Weibliche, the Eternal Womanhood, which I cannot get from another man. For men, “Das Ewig-Weibliche zieht uns hinan”–The Eternal-Feminine draws us upward (from Goethe’s Faust–an amazing work). The record has shown, however, that I don’t want the eternal feminine as straight men do. If sex can’t be a sacrament for me, should I even want it? I fully believe that, for myself, my attraction to the Eternal Feminine will be restored to me, but maybe not in this life. So what am I to do with my competing conviction of the LDS doctrine of the soul and of eternal marriage, and my homosexual reality? I don’t know. On some of the others questions that have arisen on this thread, I have a few thoughts.
I used to participate in an online group for LDS gays who seek to be TBM. There was a member of the site with a very touching story. He and his current roommate were once gay lovers. Both of them contracted HIV, and one of them has some serious health problems as a result. They have since decided to stop the sex, but to stay together and take care of one another. Their bishop is supportive of this. They live in the Bay Area, where members have become a bit more loving about gay people through their service to one another. If this story were played out in another place, it could have ended differently. Part of the priesthood leader roulette that sometimes happens. The Church really doesn’t have much in the way of policy for situations like this, and we’re left dealing with individual prejudices and inconsistent treatment. It’s almost as if the church is crossing its fingers and hoping that we can’t stay, because then they would have to figure out the logistics! (maybe that’s a bit too unkind).
Anyway, Wayfarer’s exchange with the missionaries today was a bit enlightening. Other than the handful of statements by Elders Kimball, Packer, Oaks, and Holland, there really isn’t much LDS writing about the issue. Pres Kimball’s son and biographer mentioned that near the end of his life, he regretted some of his harsh writings on homosexuality. I think Elder Packer honestly believes that God couldn’t possibly allow a person to develop homosexual feelings–that it would make God unjust. Elder Oaks and Holland seem to have the most compassion about the issue. But it’s the writings of Kimball and Packer that resonate in the ears of many. And I think a lot of members just really haven’t thought very deeply about the issue, and are likely to parrot these soundbites without thinking about the real consequences. Wayfarer caught them on that. I don’t think he meant to play “gotcha”, but I do think it’s enlightening about the state of affairs as it currently stands.
Anyway, there are a lot of ideas to explore with this issue. I am just wondering if I need to take a bit of a break from the three hour block to reorient myself and construct a life Christ-centered life in the church that better meets my needs. I have tried staying away, but it’s just not me. I want to leave a better church for gays in the future. It’s just so darned painful and difficult. And this is where I need some advice about moving forward.
Wayfarer, Silent, Ray, Thanks for your support and ideas.
I have had very good conversations with my SP and Bishop. I have a new SP now, and I don’t know what he would say.
As for my bishop, he is very compassionate and wants to help me, but has absolutely no idea how, other than keeping his door open so we can talk. Unfortunately, when many hear about my situation, the response is kind of “Sorry, dude. That’s tough. Good luck with that.” Perhaps this is another of the reasons I feel so frustrated with the church. It seems that many members of the church have only three responses to the situation (sorry about the sarcasm):
1-We have therapy for that. After some therapy, get married and everything will work out! I mean, look at those Club Unicorn people. It’s so inspiring!
2-Oh. The therapy didn’t work. OK…Well, this is a church for married people with families–but you can’t have one. It sound like you are going to be attracted to men until the resurrection–but you must remain celibate until then if you want to be with us. And sorry, but since this is a family church, we don’t offer any support for single people that doesn’t involve marrying them off to one another. Oh wait–you’re not attracted to the ladies…well, you couldn’t in good conscience date one of them…sorry, I guess you’re just going to have to tough this one out on your own…Because, you know, we can’t officially support any kind of single life plan…it’s just not done…
3-Oh? You’re still here? I thought you would just go inactive, get a boyfriend, and leave the church. That would have solved our little problem. Darn…now what do we do with you?
The ones who genuinely care for gay people, and have a better understanding of our position have one of two responses:
1-What are you doing hanging around with the LDS Church? They persecute and murder gay people! Leave them, and follow your heart!
-or-
2-Wow. you have a tough problem. I love you and I want to help you stay. But I have know idea how to help, other than to be a shoulder to cry on when you need it.
Boy, I am grateful for the shoulders to cry on. I understand that the choice faced by people like me is very difficult, and that many choose to leave and find a life partner. I can’t fault them for that–I know very well what they’re feeling. I’d like to stay, and try. But I won’t accept the demands of others for me. I want to choose my path, and I want to choose the church.
I’d really like to see a church where the members understand that nobody chooses their sexual orientation. That therapy only sometimes works. That we need a church where people aren’t deathly afraid to declare a homosexual orientation. A place where, rather than zealously demanding celibacy and leaving us on our own to sort out the details, there are viable, institutionally supported celibate life paths for those whose circumstances do not allow for traditional heterosexual marriage.
I’d love to stay and work for these things, but what can one person do? And how do I maintain my sanity in the meantime, especially when church is so blasted tedious? Christ is the only One who can really lift my burdens, but it seems I hardly hear about Him at church…my ward only wants to talk about families…
Sorry about the length. I hope that I haven’t offended anyone… I’m afraid I may have…
😳 Quote:we tend to hang around members of our own community and look inward rather than making a difference in our communities.
This is the biggest issue of concern for me…
Hi, guys, I feel like I haven’t posted for a while. This is a subject I can’t stay silent on.
I appreciate Wayfarer’s comments about “suicide watch”. I recently recovered from a fifteen-year bout with depression. I completely loathed myself because of my SSA. All the while I was getting therapy to change, with the idea in my head that I would be happy when I finally change, or that I will be acceptable to myself and the Church if I change, etc., etc. This is by no means uncommon, especially for people who are committed to the restored gospel.
When I finally accepted who I am, an amazing sense of peace entered my life. I am not suggesting this is the case for everyone with SSA, but in may case, therapy helped everything but my SSA.
In spite of the experience I described above, I feel pretty strongly that my life path is going to be celibate. This is an amazingly hard thing to actually accomplish. I had two great conversations with a member of the stake presidency on Sunday, and my bishop on Tuesday, in which I basically bore my heart about the issue, about how painful it is, and about how I was trying to figure out how to make staying in the church work for me. They were both very supportive, and I think that my willingness to share the realities of how difficult it is to be in my position contributed to the incremental change that is coming to pass in the church.
It has
only been about five yearssince the church’s pamphlet “God Loveth His Children”, which acknowledges that people don’t choose their orientation, that some people can’t benefit from reorientation therapy, and that mixed orientation marriage is no longer recommended for people with no attraction to the opposite sex. We’ve come a long way since recommending marriage as a cure, excommunications for SSA, etc. Obviously there is still a long way to go, but things are changing line upon line. Unfortunately, change is a little too slow for the person on the verge of suicide. I have a suspicion that the 15 are still divided on whether people choose their sexual orientation or not. Without that common ground, there is no room for discussion of what to do about gay people. It’s the first thing that has to change in people’s heads about SSA–it is not a choice, and is therefore not an agency issue. Until the majority of church members understand this, we can’t move forward on the implications–and how we have to change as a people in order to become Zion (at least, in relation to SSA).
I think that my affection for the church is one of the things keeping me around. so, I don’t really like to use the word disaffected for myself either. Unorthodox, maybe. Uncorrelated, maybe. Freethinking, maybe. Incidentally, a couple of years ago I took a political spectrum survey online, and it pronounced that I was politically disaffected. I tend to agree with that.
I love the implications of the gifts of the spirit. And I wonder if sometimes maybe our current buttoned-down church experience may be preventing some of the more flamboyant manifestations of these gifts. I will never forget when I attended the broadcast of the dedication of the Palmyra Temple. I traveled all over the Salt Lake Valley to find a handkerchief for the hosanna shout. I was familiar with the history of the intense, Pentecostal, outpourings of the spirit that attended the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. I was very much looking forward to a thrilling experience with the hosanna shout.
What actually happened was a very boring, mumbled, flipping around of the handkerchief that deeply disappointed me. Where is our fire? Where is our passion? Where is the fervent outpouring of the Spirit? I want to believe that there is more to being carried away in the spirit than the calm, peacefulness that I feel in the Temple and some church meetings.
On the Joseph thing, by the way,my personal belief is that God was not pleased with the polygamy stuff going on at the end of Joseph’s life… And that he took Joseph out. I have never said or written this to anyone.
:shh: This is a really tough one.I truly feel that God has helped me through small situations when I felt desperate, like helping me to find my keys in time to leave for work ( a tender mercy). But on some of the major issues in my life, he has been silent. I personally believe that God loves us very deeply, and that he is our father. I think that because he may be omniscient, he knows when we are truly in mortal danger as opposed to when we need to scrape our knees up a little bit (and therefore lets us fall out of the trees, and get a little bit roughed up). I wonder if with our short perspective, we over blow the whole “apostasy” thing, when maybe we are just on spiritual journeys that will eventually get us to our destination, but seem to include winding roads that we didn’t expect. Then again, I have very recently felt that God doesn’t love me as much as he loves some of his other children. I’m kind of lost on this issue as well.
NOTE: I’ve noticed that I like to use “we” and “our”–I don’t really intend to project my experience on other people or assume what they think and feel–it’s just the way I philosophize.
BTW, blurting out “Joseph had 33 wives” would have been a perfect fit for that lesson, and it actually crossed my mind, but I shot it down. 👿 The scriptural passage in question was in Jacob 2:27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
I thought of another statement/question to ask instead: “Many in the US still connect the church with polygamy. What should we tell them when they ask about it?” But, I didn’t do it. I felt like my social capital for the lesson had already been spent on the giving to the poor exchange.
