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Heber,

You make a great case for gay kids to just shut their mouth and stay in the closet. Then, nobody has to worry.

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Kipper: I hope you know that I don’t intend to attack you, and I appreciate your candor and willingness to be inclusive.

I think the thing at stake here is whether gay youth should be allowed to have the same experience in scouts and on missions as straight youth, or if it should be something–separate but equal. I guess that’s what we’re here to work out.

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why would a gay youth (or young adult or adult male or female) be more trustworthy in a potential intimate setting than a straight?

This is a good question. In my fifteen years of working on my attractions, I’ve met and become familiar with many gay mormon men and their experiences. The answer to the question about would be “Because they already are or have been in these intimate settings, and for the vast majority of them nothing inappropriate has happened.” I would say that this is also true of our straight youth. I’m uncomfortable with the standard mormon anxiety that if you put a male and a female in a room alone together, sex is inevitable. I just don’t think that’s true, and I think that it greatly underestimates our youth. I’m not advocating that we have zero boundaries–I just think we should teach our youth correct principles, and trust them to make the right choices. If two kids decide to mess around, they will find a time and place to do it, regardless of our imposed boundaries. I’d like to hear what others think about this.

As for “intimate settings”–can we define this? What is an intimate setting? What intimate settings arise in scouts and on missions? What are the dangers there, and what can be done to address them?

Again, I hope you know that I’m not trying to “demonize” you. I’m just pushing back a bit.

As to “straight communities” and “gay communities”, can we not be “no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God”? Can we forget about the LGBT “other” and consider the lesbian, bi, gay, and transsexual members of the Church to be a part of us, and for these problems to be “our” problems rather than problems caused when two communities collide?

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Kipper: I think the scales of justice have properly shifted but maybe over-corrected a bit and practical concerns may be overlooked on the grounds of acceptance and fairness.

I can see this. I’m glad we’re moving toward a country wherein a person cannot legally be discriminated against in housing and employment based on real or perceived sexual orientation. I also agree that there are some LGBT folks and their allies who take this way too far, and wish to engage in reverse discrimination. In a constitutional democracy, it takes time and collaboration to work these things out. I think the same sex marriage thing is a good example. I believe that 1st and 14th amendment rights can be balanced–this doesn’t have to be a zero sum game. I think in the process, we can also work out the logistical details.

Back to the discussion at hand: having gay missionaries and gay scouts brings up similar concerns–can a homosexual young man control himself in situations where other young men are dressing, and such. I actually think the discussion in the NFL last spring about Michael Sam is very on point. Here is a quote from an interview with Giant’s Terrell Thomas:

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“I think society is ready for it and America’s ready for it, but I don’t think the NFL is,” Thomas said. “As a player, all you want to know is if he can play. That’s on the field. But in the locker room, it’s different. There’s a lot of talk and joking around, and some guys walk around completely naked all the time, and they might not want to do that anymore. When you add that situation to the mix, I think it’s going to make some people uncomfortable.

“Things are changing, and certain change is inevitable. We have to look at him like a brother and can’t treat him any different. But that could be difficult for some people, just the way our locker rooms work.”

Pressed on the likelihood that he’s already played on teams with gay players, Thomas said, “I’m pretty sure I have.

“But there’s a difference between knowing and not knowing that changes a lot of things,” he said. “You’re talking about playing in the NFL, the grind, the brotherhood, the joking that goes along with it. The locker room may not be ready for that, because it’s the kind of thing that changes everything.

“It may make guys feel like they have to change the way they carry themselves and some of the things they say. You’re talking about a league where things have been done a certain way for a long time, and now you’re going to expect people to change, and people may not know how to do that the right way.”

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/10442283/terrell-thomas-new-york-giants-says-nfl-not-ready-gay-player You can read other parts of this discussion by doing a google search.

I think Thomas brings up a few points that apply to our situation:

1-Some people are ready for openly gay people, and others are not

2-Some men don’t want gay men seeing them naked

3-Scouts and missionaries have already worked with gay young men, they just didn’t know it

(As an aside: I realize I’m focusing on the male experience here, but this is as applicable to lesbian mormons as gay mormons)

I guess I’m trying to understand the anxiety from the other side of the issue; especially parents who want to protect their children. I don’t mind sharing some personal details here if it helps the discussion. I know this is just my experience, but I think it might apply to other gay people’s experiences as well. [Edit: I shared some anecdotes to the effect that I think closeted gay boys and men are anxious in these situations and try to avoid trouble, but thought better of including the details.]

Gay men in the closet live with enormous anxiety every day of their lives. Believe me when I say that we avoid looking and thinking about other men in these situations. Things are different for straight young men. Of course there is a religious injunction not to look on a woman to lust after her. But it is expected that young men and women will flirt, date, hold hands, and snuggle. Because of this, I think the chances are much greater that straight boys and girls alone will get into trouble than a gay boy surrounded by straight boys. There will always be the outlier who is predatory. But I think that gay mormon boys who are serious about doing the right thing are going to avoid trouble as much as possible, especially if they want to stay in the closet. I can honestly say that while I was on the mission this stuff became a non-problem. I saw the other missionaries as brothers, and we were compatriots in a great work. Attraction just wasn’t an issue then. I think this is the case for most gay missionaries. I could be wrong.

We’re here. We’re in the church. We were one of your mission companions. We were one of your buddies. Maybe we’re your EQP or your bishop. Or your home-teaching companion. I think the point is that I hope that straight members of the church can get used to us being part of the body of Christ. We deserve to have experiences in the boy scouts and on missions. Same sex attraction is not a sin, and cannot be eliminated or repented of. Just like young straight men who may have done something to disqualify themselves from missionary service, young gay men who are messing around have to face the same consequences. But the rest of us are/were just as worthy to go as the others. No gay young man should be excluded from scouts or a mission if he is worthy and wants to do it.

Not long ago, it was assumed that all gay men were perverts. Maybe that idea is still out there. But it simply isn’t true.

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Hi Kipper.

I guess it would help me if I knew exactly what you fear will happen if a gay scout is in the same tent as your son?

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Realistically, I think that the Deseret News is an organ of the Church, and an important part of PR. We’ve been pushing this “15 million strong” thing for the last few years, so I can see how the statistic would be embarrassing for some, and necessitate “editing”.

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What she did was very inappropriate. Can you imagine if she had said “I really hate Jews”, and then interrogated everyone to find out whether she had to work with a Jew? If you feel up to it, you could explain this to her. On the other hand, you are under no obligation to waste your energies on people with those kinds of prejudices. I wouldn’t worry about cowardice.

To be fair, I think that many Mormons don’t do us any favors when it comes to creating good will.

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My mission was one of the easiest times in my life in regards to controlling sexual attractions, and I know I’m not alone in this. My homosexual feelings were at their lowest point in my life since puberty. What you may not be considering is that gay Mormons have a lot of practice at suppressing sexual thoughts and energies. Unlike straight teens whose feelings are encouraged, there just is no place for same sex attractions in young Mormon culture. Emotional dependency, however, can happen, and did to me for a couple of my companions.

I have to admit I’ve rolled my eyes several times as I’ve followed this discussion. I guess I kind of understand where this fear is coming from, but it just strikes me as ridiculous (Just like those parents who are terrified that their sons might be on a campout and have to share a tent with a gay person! Lord have mercy!)

I mean no disrespect, but come on.

The theme of gay missionaries has been explored in cinema, however: Latter Days and The Falls being two recent examples. I think both of the films were written by RMs who ended up leaving the church to get some peace in their lives. Both are rated R. These cases are very rare. There are many gay missionaries who have great experiences, and for whom their missions were a welcome respite from the expectations to date and marry.

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Quote:

“you’re not gay, so why does it matter to you?”

😯

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Rag Doll,

I am very sorry this is happening. Your daughter is very fortunate to have you as a mother.

As difficult as it might be, I wonder if focusing on the legal side of things rather than the church side would be helpful in feeling you are doing all you can to help. I truly believe in repentance and forgiveness, but also in karma. What goes around will eventually come around for folks who don’t try their best to make things right. It’s probably cold comfort right now. But they’ll get theirs eventually if they don’t change.

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What would I tell a young man or woman who is LGBT? Here are some thoughts I have that I’ve picked up on my journey as a gay Mormon:

1-Reassure them of the Lord’s love for them

2-Teach them that their sexual orientation is not a sin, and does not make them unworthy or “less than” others

3-Make sure that they and their parents (if the parents have been informed) have a copy of “God Loveth His Children”, and review the pamphlet with them https://www.lds.org/manual/god-loveth-his-children/god-loveth-his-children?lang=eng

4-Make sure their family has a copy of the booklet published by the Family Acceptance Project (available at their website http://familyproject.sfsu.edu/LDS-booklet)

5-Let them know that they are not expected to change their sexual orientation, either through “repentance” or “therapeutic means” in order to remain a member of the church in good standing (NOTE: both of these methods can be immensely destructive of self esteem and spirituality. Since no amount of therapy can change a person’s sexual orientation, efforts to do so will become frustrating and self-defeating. Additionally, spiritual efforts such as fasting, prayer, and demonstrations of obedience and piety have absolutely no effect on sexual orientation, and can only result in spiritual cynicism in the long term, even to the point of atheism)

6-Review the Law of Chastity with them—no sexual relations except with a husband or wife to whom they are legally and lawfully wed; teach the principles of avoiding lust and casual sex

7-Assure them that their sexual orientation does not disqualify them from fulfilling a full-time mission, if they wish to do so

8-Tell them that the Church no longer counsels gay people to enter into heterosexual marriages, either as a therapeutic step, or as a show of obedience (unless of course they are attracted to a particular person with whom they would like to build a life; this can be successful for bisexuals, especially if they marry a good friend who agrees to enter into the marriage with full disclosure of the bisexuality)

9-Most of all, help the youth to find out what God’s path for them is, whether in or out of the church.

At the end of the day, if we really believe God is good, that it is not good for man to be alone, and that our greatest joys in this life come from family, how can we continue to demand single, separate celibacy of our LGBT brothers and sisters without a deeper examination of whether this is really what God wants or not? These ideas have been bought with much pain, but they represent my current thoughts on the subject, and what I would tell a young man or woman who is LGBT.

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Daddy B,

This is a very complicated issue, and not at all cut and dried. The Brethren have had several approaches to this issue in the past 50 years, and they continue to change on this stuff.

I’m going to be blunt: I think you’ll find the answer to your question by going out, making the acquaintance of several gay people, and listen, really listen to their stories. Get some empathy, and then come back to the discussion.

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I don’t know if this will add to the discussion or not. But I feel like I should point out that we may say that we can still be kind to those with whom we disagree, but it’s going to take a lot more than just saying “we love you” to convince them. Don’t be surprised if gays and lesbians don’t believe it. It’s going to take more than just words. We need to show the love, perhaps for a while before they believe it. As I think about it, it might be too controversial a point to make in the talk. But I think it’s good to understand during the preparation of the talk.

Along the same lines, the Church feels very strongly that it must oppose same-sex marriage in order to honor it’s beliefs. But it’s equally important to understand that this topic is very personal for LGBT folks. We need to understand just exactly what it means personally to a gay couple who is prevented from being married or adopting each other’s children. How would you feel if an outsider came into your life and told you than you couldn’t be married to your spouse anymore? So again, don’t be surprised if they don’t believe it when we say “we love you.”

I’d like to see what others think of this.

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I was hoping someone familiar with British TV would give some context. If Channel 4 is notorious, why would the Church agree to that level of access?

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zzz

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Seligman–that means “blessed man”. Ironic…

I have benefited tremendously from cognitive-behavioral therapy. I have challenged many of my knee-jerk ways of thinking and feeling about the world, and learned to overcome a lot of it. It’s taken many years of practice. I am still heavily influenced by the weather, however, and I have to take SSRIs every day, which is just a function of my biology. I am so very far away from the way I looked at mental illness 20 years ago, and so far away from what I was taught about it in the ultra-conservative cowtown I grew up in.

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