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In my opinion, the new manuals couldn’t come soon enough. Unfortunately, it looks like were going to continue the teachings of the presidents of the church until its completion in elders quorum and relief society. I know that sounds very negative. That as a teacher trying to adapt some of these chapters to our actual needs and the quorum, I feel like the committees who wrote the manuals had to really dredge up some mediocre quotes and teachings to support some of these lesson topics. Instead of using the manual today, I felt like I had to go directly to the Scriptures and the discussion questions at the end of the chapter. We talked for most of the class about the parable of the sheep and the goats from Matthew chapter 25 and how it applies to our current lives. I did bring up the story of Lorenzo snow and the broken wagon axle at the very end. Maybe it’s just my increasing heterodoxy, or the poorly written manuals, or combination of both, but even though I love to teach it’s hard to work with what we’ve got.
Futurama! I’d like to welcome you to the forum as well. I understand your concern about not being a stumbling block to others. I’ve been reading this forum for a couple of years now, and I’ve come to believe that this is a very safe place to discuss all of those questions that seem to be so forbidden to discuss at church. I am a firm believer that the truth will indeed set you free. I think it is much more consistent with long-term growth to base our faith and hope on the truth, and not on comfortable beliefs that are not quite true, or not quite completely true. I understand that everyone is on their own place on their journey, and that putting all the cards out on the table may not be the best bet for where they are in life. But I hope that you feel like you can really discuss your questions.
I think the next step is probably to kick it up the line. If the deacons quorum advisors aren’t being very helpful, have him talk with the Bishop. The Bishop is the president of the Aaronic priesthood in the Ward. Nowadays, bishops are being advised that their primary responsibility is for the youth in the Ward, while the elders quorum and relief society are responsible for the adults. I’ll bet that he can get some support from the Bishop. In any case, if the deacons quorum is dysfunctional, the Bishop should be the next line of defense if the advisors aren’t helping. Over the past 40 years or so, there has been an erosion of “community” in the United States. With the rise of social media, it seems that there are more little groups that are forming to provide community to like-minded people. I think that this community feeling is one of the major reasons for groups like this. This lesson (about the Kirtland anti-banking society) was a bit painful for me to sit through. Luckily we didn’t get too much into the details of the CES inspired account. I remember reading in Rough Stone Rolling that there was some shady stuff going on that may have involved the prophet. I couldn’t remember the details, but I do remember thinking that those who left the church as a result of this failed prophecy, and the very real financial hardships that this caused. In considering the historical circumstances, I think any fair-minded person would question Joseph’s prophet hood in the face of such a dramatic disaster. Then again, perhaps we expect too much from God – that is, that if we covenant with him and keep commandments that he will protect us from bad judgment and the storms of mortality. It wasn’t just the Saints in Ohio who faced this massive financial challenge. The entire country was awash in bank failures, and subsequently endured over five years of a depression and rampant unemployment. The Lorenzo Snow sermon suggests that many of the Saints got caught up in a financial bubble that was based on speculation, and that this was motivated in great part by personal greed. I can totally understand this after having lived through both the dot COM burst, and the inflated housing market bubble that burst in 2008. I’m sure we all know people who were caught up in the excitement of these two bubbles.
In any case, this part of church history may not be the best example to teach what they intended to teach. This might be a result of the difficulty of finding enough material to base lessons on from the lives of each of the prophets with the material they have to work with. I don’t know.
Matthew chapter 19 brings up some thought-provoking issues both in relation to marriage, and potentially to homosexuals. The first part of the chapter includes yet another attempt by the Pharisees to trap Jesus using the Mosaic code. Jesus’s teaching here is fascinating, considering our current prevalence of divorce rates in the United States. Jesus teaches that the Mosaic code allowed for divorce, but that this was because of the hardness of the hearts of the people – “for it was not so in the beginning”. This indicates a concession for people to live a lower law of marriage, that is marrying and divorcing for any cause. In Matthew chapter 19 Jesus teaches that adultery is the only legitimate reason for divorce. Now I do not necessarily agree with that, especially when one considers abuse. So we may not have the complete law in our Scriptures. I was listening to NPR last week, I don’t remember show I was listening to. I learned that members of the Roman Catholic Church who have civilly divorced but have not obtained an annulment from the church are not allowed to take the communion. I had no idea! Apparently there is a movement in the church to soften its stance on this. On a personal note, I have an uncle who lived in Panama and married a Panamanian woman. Like much of Latin America, Panama is largely Roman Catholic, and its marriage laws reflect this. My uncle and his wife separated, but were unable to obtain a divorce because of the laws of land. He continued to remain in Panama so that he could be around his children. (Incidentally, this on-call has become a transvestite and now lives in the United States)
This passage in chapter 19 of Matthew continues Jesus’s discussion of marriage and divorce with a somewhat cryptic passage about eunuchs. Some people have interpreted eunuch in this case to include both heterosexual men who had been castrated, those who were born with or developed a homosexual orientation, and those who choose to remain celibate for religious reasons. The church currently teaches that those with a homosexual orientation may only choose to be eunuchs “for the kingdom of heaven’s sake.”
A couple of years ago I was worshiping in the Denver Temple and my heart was heavy as I pondered my situation. As I prayed in the celestial room, I felt moved to open up the Scriptures. I opened up to Isaiah chapter 56:
1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto
the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.It is difficult for my rational mind to consider this to be a coincidence. I had completely forgotten about this experience until the eunuch passage for Matthew was mentioned. Perhaps there really is a place in the kingdom for homosexuals.
Silent Dawning: your experience in Canada is just the kind of information that can be helpful for our discussion of this issue. I am trying not to be cynical about the change in strategy that I have seen coming from Elder Oaks and Elder Cook – that is, framing the discussion of same-sex marriage in terms of freedom of religion. Again, I feel I need to be open to the idea that the church may actually be in danger of losing freedom of conscience on this issue. Where that leaves homosexuals both in and out of the church, who knows?
Is there more to this than just the church? It sounds as if there are other things that your wife and daughter are hoping for, things that are not necessarily related to the church. If that’s the case, it sounds like this might be a family issue to hash out. IDK My parents have been living in an RV for the past four months. It has been difficult for them, but it seems to be the best solution for them while they build their house. This sounds like it might be a longer haul, though.
I completely understand the need for personal space. As an introvert, I suffer greatly without a place for me to chill out away from other human interactions and refill my cup. Have you expressed this need to them? Are you feeling that this commute will push you over the edge in some way? If so, your desires are also relevant to the discussion. But I also understand that fathers often sacrifice for the happiness of their wife and children.
Life_Journey_of_Matt wrote:Quote:Justice requires immediate perfection or a punishment when we fall short.
[There are multiple ways to look at the Atonement, obviously. One is Wilcox’s view. We are fallen, we deserve to be punished, but the Atonement is beautiful because Christ took that punishment for us. We just have to decide how big of a pat on the back we want for our realizing this and following his teachings. I think we can see, through Brigham Young’s teachings of “Blood Atonement,” that this viewpoint can lead to a very barbaric view of existence, with fear and guilt at its root. God had to punish Christ beyond anything we can imagine, for something he didn’t do, just to give us hope.I have understood this process not as “punishment”, but as consequences to eternal laws. This presupposes that sin is that which violates eternal law, and that consequences follow from keeping or violating eternal law. In effect, God isn’t dishing out punishment – we are simply experiencing consequences. I guess this is a lot like karma.In this way, Christ isn’t being punished for our sins, but rather accepting the consequences of our sin if we fulfill the simple requirements of his Gospel. I don’t know how scriptural this is, however.
Quote:Another view is that of Eckhart Tolle. We are all naturally “at-one” with divinity. We already ARE who we are supposed to be, yet there is an ego (natural man, an attribute of this existence usually taking root in the mind, call it Satan if you will) that develops in each person, clouding the peaceful truth of our existence. Christ’s purpose was to show us this, “the way, the truth, and the life,” and he did it beautifully. When we are in alignment with our natural state and not the ego, we ARE Love, just as “God is Love”. We are charitable, just as Christ is. We don’t WANT to do anything to harm ourselves or others. We see this divinity within ourselves, and we realize, “If it’s in me, it must be in everyone else.” In this way, we start to see ourselves in others. It’s no longer a world of sinners and saints, us and them, righteous and wicked. A Muslim won’t see an infidel, they’ll see a person, much like themselves. The Mormon won’t see an Anti-Mormon and vice versa, they’ll see a person much like themselves. The arguments become pointless, because they only feed the ego. Why is the second great commandment like unto the first? Because it actually becomes equivalent to it when we realize there is divinity in ourselves and others! As King Benjamin taught, we serve God when we serve others.
This is very beautiful– it is simple, pure, and consistent with scriptural teachings about charity, and the nature of God, Christ, and all of us. This deeply touches my heart, and it is something that I can base my life upon. When I ponder on these concepts, I feel that I get in touch with my own spirituality.
Yesterday, I read James Falconer’s post at Patheos–“Let’s Not Be Heretics”. http://www.patheos.com//Mormon/Lets-Not-Be-Heretics-James-Faulconer-10-31-2013.html In it, he discusses the use of the term “haeresis” (meaning heresy) to mean “sects” or “divisions” within the church in the writings of Paul. It’s a great post that gently argues for a dissolution of sectarian differences within the Church (i.e, “liberal mormon”, “conservative mormon”, “TBM”, etc.).
It reminded me of a passage from 4 Nephi:
Quote:15 And it came to pass that there was no contention in the land, because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people.
16 And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God.
17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.
18 And how blessed were they!
No more “us” vs. “them”, but all one. I’ve gotta work on this…
I’ll tell you what–the video does not look good. The men appear to be treating their “alteration” of the formation lightly, and in a goofy, celebratory way. Whether it was a prompting or not, the men are whooping and hollering like it’s some kind of stunt. Tip for living in our internet-based world complete with camera phones and instagram–we are all being watched. Don’t film yourself doing questionable things. Here is my gut response to this question (not necessarily how I feel and think currently): Elder Packer’s unwritten order of things seems to loom largely over the culture and teachings around this topic. Obedience to authority figures is hugely important. So if an authority figure comes to you with calling, you serve where you are asked to serve. Doing so indicates your submission to the will of the Lord, and demonstrates your loyalty to the institution. And you serve only within the bounds of your calling – do what you’re asked, follow the rules, and don’t make waves. At least, this is how I was taught and how I was brought up.
I’ve heard the idea that callings are often extended in desperation, rather than in inspiration. So the best fit for each person isn’t necessarily what happens. There are a number of callings that are necessary in order for a ward to operate. However, there are scores of other little callings that seem to exist in order to give people something to do. And someone has to be found to fill the calling, even if it’s not quite the right person for the job, or the right job for the person. Once you have all of these callings going on a ward becomes this bureaucratic beast that must continually be fed. So instead of following the spirit and looking for opportunities for service, we become busy busy busy. Unfortunately, this busyness takes up so much of our time and energy that we often don’t have the space to follow the spirit and look for people to serve.
I am currently struggling with an assignment that I have been given by my elders quorum president. (I am his first counselor). We have been tasked to come up with callings that can be given to a number of new members of the ward. It wasn’t said this way, but essentially we have been asked to “make up” callings for everyone. The idea seems to be that unless everyone has a calling, they won’t come to church. I think that people will come to church and stay active if they have good relationships there and if they have a quality worship experience. I’m afraid to say that the “program” of the church seems to have become an end in itself– kind of a tail wagging the dog situation. I wish that we could have less bureaucracy, and multiplicity of callings, and more relationships and quality worship, along with an admonition to serve one another and others outside freely and regularly, and spontaneously. But maybe this is all just a pipe dream…
DB, Do you know about William Perry’s Scheme of Intellectual and Ethical Development? (Here’s a ppt video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff0nMe_OwJg%20http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff0nMe_OwJg%20” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.jmu.edu/geology/evolutionarysystems/protected/handouts/willperry2.pdf ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.jmu.edu/geology/evolutionarysystems/protected/handouts/willperry2.pdf [Edit–maybe I’ll have to do a writeup of Perry applied to Mormon faith development]
