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I struggle with tithing along with everything else…I live it…but I wrestle with it as well. For now I tend to believe that tithing should be paid on income in excess to what is “needful”. Determining was is needful is the hard part. My wife disagrees and feels we should tithe close to gross – so we do.
Except in this example the cry for tolerance was directed primarily at taking something away from someone else – In my experience activists for “tolerance” are some of the most “intolerant” people I have ever met. They don’t want mutual respect and understanding, rather, they believe their paradigm is the only correct one and they want everyone to see the world the way they do – I am frequently amazed at their lack of comprehension regarding the inherent hypocrisy in their dialogue and fail to grasp the two-way street / double-edged sword nature of this “tolerance” idea… Let alone the vast generalizations and stereotypes put forward by the opposing voice in this situation…his view of the Church is rather simplistic and cliche rather than nuanced. His characterization of the church could be cross applied the majority of society up until the last two decades or so. His voice is exactly the voice of the BoM musical – cliche, naive, stereotypes, mis-characterization etc.
People like this objector annoy me because I just want to shout out “YOU DON”T KNOW ME!” Quit assuming you know something about my faith, the way I practice or exemplify my faith, or the way I feel about politics, homosexuality or anything else.
The interpretation of these scriptures was also question by the fairly well known apologist Michael Ash in a Sunstone article back in 2006. The side-bar in that article about “information inoculation” is also a good read. Here is the article:
https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/143-34-43.pdf I have been atheist-agnostic about miraculous healing for quite some time – I just have no personal experience with it. In my opinion the primary and perhaps only way that God intervenes in the world is through the dispersal of knowledge which can then be acted on by us, but I am much more skeptical of God directly acting on anything physical. God/Spirit initiated dispersal of tangible knowledge can yield choices and circumstances and scientific discoveries and insights that give us understanding which leads to the creation of medical treatments and other technologies etc. etc.
Ever since studying DH Oaks talk about priesthood blessings I feel like I have increased clarity in healing blessings. The primary impression that comes being that the priesthood power can deliver the type of spiritual healing which brings peace, comfort, strength and endurance, but any potential physical healing usually is meant to come through seeking out and trusting the best medical help we can find.
I am not saying that I don’t think such physical miracles are impossible, only that they are not in my personal data set of experience.
That bishop might have had good intentions stemming from a desire to see your wife and family relieved of the burdens of mental illness, but I don’t think the solution is expect or invoke miraculous healing. Education about physical realities is important. Who knows how many gay young men have killed themselves after been told that being gay is a choice, and they can pray/faith themselves out of their affections; only to discover that it simply isn’t so. They interpret it as a failure of faith, rather than merely the nature and circumstances of their mortal garment.
I think the church has come a long way on these types of issues, and I suspect the general authorities would also empathize with ss and how this situation played out.
I think the cadence in and of itself could be important as it automatically can put our minds into a state of prayer-fullness. All ritual and meditation seems to have some element of this as it puts our mind and thoughts into a certain state. Although I agree “shaking” things up might be useful on some level, I wonder if it might be more of a distraction than anything. I really like to listen to the Hare Krishna Mantra when I am feeling overwhelmed and disconnected spiritually and there are many different versions of it in terms of tempo and emphasis which ultimately evoke different emotions. (example: listen to all four versions on the album “All One” by Krishna Das)
This mantra got me through some very difficult times during my dissertation work. For some reason one very challenging and discouraging evening I felt impressed to listen to the mantra and found myself just sitting in my office crying and feeling like the burden was just being lifted from me…combined with traditional LDS prayer I would often just close my eyes and let the mantra pull me into a meditative state of peace and grace. The mantra itself is obviously outside of my normal LDS faith paradigm, but I find it along with many other Hindu mantras to evoke some very deep emotions. Perhaps because I do not understand the meanings of most of them I can easily impute the meaning of simply trying draw down peace and grace from God.
“The word Hare comes from ‘Haran’ which means to take away or to end. So when one says Hare Krishna he requests God (the supreme consciousness) to take away his sorrows, his shortcomings, his failures and pains. This Hare Krishna Mantra is actually a little prayer to God for taking away all the sorrows, pains and shortcomings of the chanter and provide him bliss and joy.”
This is the version I listened to during that difficult time
If I were a Bishop in that situation I would probably revert to the last question on the Temple Recommend interview in deciding whether the person should perform the ordinance. “Do YOU feel worthy?” Still results in the same problems that Ray has mentioned, but I think it helps take the Bishop out of the bad-guy seat a little bit.
I had a recent hotel experience with Coffee myself. I was out of town for an important meeting where I had to present some of my research to our funding board, and had just purchased a brand new white shirt for the occasion. I got it out to iron it and put some water in the hotel room iron so the steam would push out the folding seams. Anyway, when I went to iron my shirt, instead of nice hot steam coming out of the iron, out came coffee – leaving a huge streaky coffee stain on my brand new shirt.
The prior “guest” in that room must have been a malicious jerk, and put coffee in the iron so that when I went to use it ended up on my shirt.
I had a backup shirt – but that was a pretty terrible morning.
Sorry brother, I empathize with you. Both because I agree with your position, and because I know how it feels to regret how you responded. In my own experience in trying to deal with these situations (although I usually leave or keep my mouth shut when I know I will lose it) – I have found that offering alternatives rather than declarations and appealing to democracy work pretty well. Most ward level activities get run through the Ward Council anyway, and simply voicing your disagreement, and then asking for either a vote in priesthood on the matter, or simply asking if they would take your concern back to the Ward Council for discussion before finalizing anything may have been a tactic that fits within the decision making process.
If they decline, then you could simply announce that you will be organizing your own Father & Kids camp-out for that weekend and that others are welcome to join you if they would prefer to be able to bring their daughters.
More people probably respected you than you think, even if you caused some tension and discomfort.
If I were you I would call the Bishop and apologize by acknowledging that it was probably the wrong approach and you lost your cool, but that you wanted to make sure your concerns were recognized. That ensures two things 1) that your apology will quickly reach the leadership levels through the PEC and ward council meeting, and 2) that your concern will be acknowledged in that meeting with more a little more deference as a result of your apology.
Good luck with that one. I think I am too stubborn to quit going to Church over this, but if the emotions themselves are the result of a larger level of discomfort and disaffection then maybe that would be helpful. You could always drive a couple hundred miles East and join me in Church
I have been doing most of my actual bible study online these days using a website that allows you to go verse by verse with parallel translations along with several sources of commentary below the verses. Found some interesting insights when studying baptism a couple months back after a few questions arose about in HPQ about the connection between the physical act of baptism and the actual “washing away” of sins. i.e. that the physical ordinance does not wash away sins itself, but is rather a token of accepting that repentance is operational through Christ.
Also, reading the commentary helps ground me by being more aware of the LDS/non-LDS nexus within Christianity.
Ray- Like many stakes there is a renewed focus on home teaching and missionary work in our stake. In the spirit of CHI.B2 we are really trying to focus on reaching out to people with genuineness. As I have traveled around my stake I have been asking the leadership to try and shift their thinking from “Did you do your home/visiting teaching?” to “How are Bro. & Sis.________ doing?”
I/we would really like to see people shift from home teaching visits being the routine Ensign lesson, to building friendships and relationships that truly support people in whatever circumstance they are in. Further, we want people to have the correct motivation in doing so – building relationships out of a genuine place of Christ-centered discipleship that doesn’t care where someone is at in their spiritual/temporal journey.
Good luck with your lesson.
I had some thoughts as we discussed CHI, Book2, Chapter 4 in our leadership meeting on Sunday. First of all I really like the direction and spirit of viewing the programs of the church as a supporting resource to the spirituality of individuals and families. I really felt like the Gospel was being swallowed up in some ways, and many members’ religion became the culture and programs of the Church rather than the Gospel. By putting the focus on supporting individuals and families I feel like there is much more room for tolerance of people in different places spiritually – a widening of the tent. The more unique thought I had was that I wonder if the transparency on Book 2 and the publicly accessible training meetings online might become a resource for other non-LDS christian churches? I know it is hard to imagine any other church wanting to do things the “mormon way”, but maybe there are some things that we do in the mormon church which could serve as a useful model to support other congregations? I have no idea whether or not pastors/ministers make a habit of trolling through all of the resources available on lds.org – but I think there is truly an impressive amount of information there.
In the Mormon Stories podcast with Richard Dutcher he talks about an experience with an “evil presence” that he still can’t explain away with reason even after losing his faith. Then when he was on his mission there was a lady claiming to be possessed, his companion whimped out and he went in to “cast out the demon”. As soon as he got in the room he knew she was faking because the “darkness” that he was already familiar with just wasn’t there. He told her to knock it off, and she was “healed” until he got transferred and then she “got possessed” again. Good video podcast if you have the time to watch it.
I don’t know Ray, I think it is or will become much more common. I was never asked that either until our stake was chosen as a pilot stake for the 12 Steps Addiction class a couple of years ago. Does your stake run the 12 step addiction program in your area? The person interviewing is responsible for making sure that the questions are understood, but this should not include attaching any personal interpretations as mentioned by Ray. Usually the interviewer starts out by saying “If you have any questions, or need clarification, please ask.” If they don’t ask for clarification I don’t see why any explanations should ever be offered. The new handbooks don’t offer much guidance to the priesthood leader beyond telling them to use discernment and make sure the questions are understood. In my experience people will occasionally ask for clarification about affiliating with opposing groups, but other than that, the questions are fairly straightforward. It is also a fairly common practice in my understanding to add a sentence to the chastity question…”Do you obey the law of chastity [including ob-staining from pornography and masturbation]?”
