[unsure]

We had those too and I didn’t really see the purpose. If a HP wants to come along then what’s the problem? I always made sure to invite several HP in our ward because there were so many that were young (under 40). They wouldn’t always show up, I think some felt they couldn’t but others did and their company was always enjoyed. Age aside, I don’t see the problem with including someone if they’ve expressed interest in going.

[unsure]

OON said what I was feeling when I read your initial post although he said it better than I could so I won’t try to expound on it.

I’m not really in a place right now to feel like I can make a difference or share my opinion in church but I’d stay for that reason and for the reasons that OON said concerning suicide. That can’t really be placed on the shoulders of the church. It’s far more complex than that.

[unsure]

I’ll agree with what has already been said.

Like DarkJedi said, the longer you stay away the harder it will be to go back so set a timeline for yourself if you can and start going back then otherwise you may never start.

I think we just need to remember that even if these men are called of God they are still just men. We also need to be careful of what we hear in church. I think opinion works it’s way into church ‘doctrine’ at every facet but especially on the local level. There may be teachers in your ward bringing forth ideas that will only cause you to doubt more but just remember they too are just people and we can’t take everything they say as gospel. Don’t let the opinions of other members discourage you because you feel differently. Odds are there are others in your ward who feel the same way you do about certain things.

[unsure]

I really cringe at some of the things I hear said at the pulpit or in class sometimes. I wonder, do these people not stop to think how that sounds to investigators? It’s almost like people forget there is anything other than TBM’s out in the audience.

I really liked my ward when it came to this, it was an eclectic group of people. Several people with tattoo’s, people with hair dyed crazy colors, people wearing jeans with their dress shirts, etc. I figured at least investigators would come in and see we aren’t all these uniform people cut from the same mold and it be easier to feel accepted. I doubt you see much of that, if any at all, if you double the average income of the ward but I prefer it the way it was.

[unsure]

Minyan Man wrote:

For us, the trip to the temple is 3 hours round trip. It gives us a chance to talk (a captive audience) about what we’re about to go through.

For the most part, the temple has a calming influence that sacrament meeting doesn’t have.

I am a very slow learner. As a result, I like the repetition too.

I would never want it to be a “drive by” experience.

I agree that the temple has a calming influence but for me that doesn’t come from going through a session. If there were meditation rooms to go to or other places to enjoy the quiet, shut out the outside world and try to connect with God I’d find that same influence and peace. Many times that is hard to achieve in the celestial room unless you can go during the right times when it won’t be busy. And the only way you can get to it is to sit through a session.

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Old Timer wrote:

On the other hand, we could have lived when it took most of the day.

Ahh..the good old days. I’m just glad I’m young enough to have missed the one piece garments. Not sure I could have handled that.

Sometimes I think I was born a century too late. Other times I’m kinda glad I’m living now.

[unsure]

I don’t have time to read the thread right now. I really enjoyed the other one although I didn’t comment on it.

The pictures alone are definitely worth the thread click though. You’ve got some skills nibbler. 😆 :clap:

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SilentDawning wrote:

I don’t see it where I have lived most of my life. I went to a Ward party in my old Ward outside the country last week as part of a trip. Massive poverty. It must just be that AP lives in an area that has a lot of wealthy Mormons…

Also, wealthy Mormons don’t make sense. People in the lower income brackets not only have low income to deal with, they have charitable donations which I think are a burden for many people. When you are a single parent earning $24000 a year, and you have to give up $2400 in tithing, that is hard. When you are earning $300 000 a year, it’s much easier to live comfortably, even after tax, if you adjust your life style. You still have $270,000 less taxes and probable school debt payments (if applicable)live on.

Now, to a traditional believer, what I just said is hokus.

I’ve never made anywhere close to 300k but I think it’s hard no matter what. I remember when I made very little that tithing was hard because it was a financial strain and I thought when I started making more it’d be easier. It might have been at times but at the same time I was also writing much bigger checks and thinking (while I’m driving around my 15 year old POS) that I could go buy a brand new car with this money or remodel the kitchen or go on a much needed vacation or…

So while you might have 270k left over you still have to have the strength to write checks for $2500 every money which can be hard to swallow. It’s not hard to find something you could spend that money on even if making well into 6 figures. 10% is just a large sum no matter how you look at it.

[unsure]

I’d never heard that before but it really does make a lot of sense when you think about it.

I can see your negatives to the possibility but I think all I can say to that is there is so much I feel like we really have no clue about. I have to believe that a HM would be nothing but an equal partner.

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hawkgrrrl wrote:

I am getting really tired of feeling like every clothing decision is a huge ordeal and I have to buy things that I don’t like because the things I do like are just a half inch away from working; it’s getting harder because garments for women are getting longer in the legs and arms every time a new style comes out.

I commented on this in another thread. It had been maybe two years or something since I had last bought garments and when I went and bought new ones they were at least an inch if not closer to 2 inches longer. That’s just ridiculous. I had to go buy 2 new pairs of shorts just to fit over the new ones. The sleeves were even longer and wouldn’t work with some of the current t-shirts I’ve had forever. I ended up just wearing the old garments most of the time even though they were pretty much grey and ratty looking. I really do feel sorry for the women, it’s got to be so hard to find decent clothes.

hawkgrrrl wrote:

suffer from low libido when their underwear is unflattering.

I’ve always thought mormons just must be really serious about following that multiply and replenish the earth council for having so many kids because garments are not the slightest bit flattering for anybody once the clothes start to come off.

[unsure]

Some time ago I had a friend who went to church with me occasionally in the past. She told me she didn’t think she could ever join even though she liked what they taught about families, standards, etc because she could never wear the mormon underwear.

I was a little put off at the time (more of a TBM then) but if you don’t grow up with it I can see how it’d be a big change for someone that already has an established sense of style and wanting to dress a certain way. I’d never seen her wear anything more revealing than a tank top or a dress/skirt that hit a few inches above the knees so it’s not like she was walking around in immodest outfits. For her it was a big deal though. I can see why now. It’s hard to explain to somebody why seeing a woman’s shoulder is so scandalous.

I think this is another one of those blanket rules to cover the minority. For a few people seeing that extra inch or two or skin might induce dirty thoughts so it’s best to play it safe. Kinda surprised all LDS women don’t have to wear XXXL muu muu’s so there is no definition of a figure present to save us from ourselves.

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Minyan Man wrote:

The whole WoW doctrine & how it developed is very interesting. It seemed to take a generation to move it from “I teach them correct principles & they

govern themselves”. To: “Thus saith the Lord”. Today if the Missionaries have an investigator who has been smoking or using coffee & tea from the

age of 13, they must demonstrate that they have quit to be baptised. This must prevent a lot of people from joining the church. Or, joining and

relapsing &/or becoming inactive.

Why is there a specific age in there?

[unsure]

Roy wrote:

That might fit in with the following line of the revelation.

Quote:

Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints

If some among the saints have a genetic predisposition to alcohol abuse then perhaps the blanket prohibition was intended for their benefit.

I think this is the reasoning for the WoW although there is clearly benefit to following it. In fact, I think it’s the reasoning a decent amount of the rules/commandments we have in the church. They are blanket statements that are in place to protect the minority who would otherwise be addicted or not able to control there actions. Whether that is WoW, gambling, pornography or whatever it may be. It’s obvious that all those things can, and will, destroy people and their families but it’s not the norm.

Before I get to my next statement I’ll say that personally I have no desire to do anything contrary to the WoW. I think alcohol and coffee are gross so I guess that makes it easy for me. I also don’t like putting things into my body that are potentially harmful, addictive or that alter my state of mind. So I follow the WoW but it’s not necessarily solely because of what the church teaches. I just think it’s a good way to live.

However, the key is moderation. I don’t see a problem with alcohol,coffee,etc really as long as it’s just a drink here or there, same goes with gambling if that’s your thing. The problem is that there are those who are predisposed to become addicted to those things and others that we are taught to stay away from. So instead of having some people struggle with it we are just taught to stay away from it and for those people it’s a huge blessing and they might never find out they are potential alcoholics or gambling addicts.

[unsure]

Welcome to the boards.

I have to wonder sometimes how much the charity of members really extends beyond the walls of the church. I felt like my ward was full of great people and even visitors/new families would always comment how they felt immediately welcomed and it was such a great ward. But once I stopped going it’s like I might as well have never attended at all. I see some similarities in your case although even when at church it doesn’t seem like people are reaching out. It’s sad to think you are letting others know your situation and you’re asking for help but not getting any.

It sounds like you still have good personal experiences, like with reading the BofM. Hold onto those and keep doing what makes you feel the spirit and connect with God even if you aren’t going to church.

[unsure]

Heber13 wrote:

I see your point, unsure. And if my comment made it sound like divorce is no big deal…then yes…good clarification because that is not how I feel. I avoided it at all costs. It wrecked me financially. It was a last resort option in my case, not a first one because I was “annoyed”. In my case, it was done to me, I was served the papers. I will spare you the details. But when I listen to Pres Uchtdorf’s message in the last Gen Priesthood session, I can tell he is talking to some group of people about sticking it out and not disposing of marriage like we do material things in life. I get that.

That just isn’t my situation, and Pres Uchtdorf didn’t address my situation to say he would understand why I would get a divorce. he just left that silent. Which I guess I understand, but hate that it makes it sound like divorce is bad always in all situations.

And good clarification by you that if my comments make it sound like it is great in all situations…that’s not it either.

But…if you are going to try to make me feel that what was done to me is against church teachings…I will argue with you because it is not. And I am at peace with God and my church.

IN the context of this thread…I truly believe divorce can be good or bad, it can happen for a variety of reasons, it is not something society would seek to promote as recommended for all…but sleeping with a partner before marriage doesn’t remove all those reasons divorce happens.

So it is kind of a false premise that we shouldn’t live chaste and moral lives because we can avoid divorce if we lower our standards before marriage.

I know I didn’t express that all right. But I hope you get my point.

In regards to the admin note – I have no problem with the current discussion so it’s fine with me and I’ll address this.

Heber, I didn’t think you felt like marriage is no big deal but your post kinda felt that way, at least to me, when I read it. So I was just getting some clarification.

As said divorce can be a good thing in several different situations. In your case it was good and there is no reason you shouldn’t be at peace with God and the church.

Heber13 wrote:

But…if you are going to try to make me feel that what was done to me is against church teachings…I will argue with you because it is not.

I don’t know what your specific situation was and it doesn’t really matter so I have nothing to argue. But as far as the general teachings of the church go, divorce is so strongly discouraged (as it should be) and eternal families are emphasized so heavily (especially when you’ve been sealed in the temple) that most don’t see that divorce can be a positive or necessary. I’ve been told in my own situation that “the brethren say if two people want to work on it, that it can work” along with other comments that make it feel like there is almost no good reason for divorce and you should work on it at all costs. Almost like all you have to do is want it bad enough and try and it’ll all work out But that isn’t reality. If the majority of members realized that it’s far more complex than that then I don’t think there would be such a stigma surrounding divorce in the church. I think this might be lessening to some degree but it is still very prevalent.

Also I never said, at least I don’t believe so, that you needed to have sex with a partner before marriage. I questioned living together before marriage (and admitted that the physical would be hard to keep away if you do live with someone) not that you need to sleep with someone before hand. Re-reading my initial post I could have just as easily have left this out. I’m not sure it needed to be included and it just makes it seem like I’m advocating sex before marriage but I’m not really.

unsure wrote:

I think sexual compatibility is just as important as anything else in a relationship.

Heber13 wrote:

…but sleeping with a partner before marriage doesn’t remove all those reasons divorce happens.

So it is kind of a false premise that we shouldn’t live chaste and moral lives because we can avoid divorce if we lower our standards before marriage.

I agree with both of these.

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