[VioletFire]

DarkJedi wrote:

I came across this in the Trib today:

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/09/29/more-millennial-mormons/” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/09/29/more-millennial-mormons/

Good stuff relevant to this conversation.

Wow this is a really great article. Thanks so much for posting this. It’s nice to hear I’m not alone sometimes. There are dozens of us! 😆

[VioletFire]

Roy wrote:

We have had many conversations with the kids. When they ask a question about heaven or hell I tell them that different people believe different things. We have a faith tradition that has some good thoughts and principles. I do not feel that I teach things but then not act on them. We belong to a faith with some very dogmatic ideas that we may not agree with. We discuss how to interact with such a community without being disrespectful.

I do believe that inherent in my approach is that many people fervently believe and teach things about God that may not be true. This I believe opens the door to people claiming evidence for what they believe about God that does not withstand scrutiny. That in turn may lead to a disbelief in God. I do not know if my children would be better off being given only one black and white worldview over the more flexible but less certain worldview I am providing. I hope that I am giving my children enough tools and space that they can take an active role in charting their course and choosing their path. If they become atheists, I hope that they are happy, well adjusted, service and civic minded, and moral atheists – fully respectful and even appreciative of others from different backgrounds and with different perspectives.

Thanks, this is really helpful. This is an interesting journey for our family. I’d love for my kids to have a relationship with God, but really as long as they are happy, moral people that are self-sufficient then I’m happy.

[VioletFire]

dande48 wrote:

So yes, we technically don’t “get our own planet”. Not all LDS will get exalted, and “they” means all latter day saints. But if you’re blessed and faithful enough to meet exaltation, you make them. LOTS of them. And you have LOTS of children, and a spouse, so the planets will be shared (hence, not your own). It’s just one more example of the Church oversimplifying to convert, and then later pulling an Obiwan, “what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.”

When I thought about it more I figured it was this. The “subtle” difference in wording like Roy spoke about. It feels very manipulative and dishonest to me. I get that they are trying to talk to investigators and show them we aren’t dictators of our own planets or whatever, but I think it could have been done in a way that feels more genuine.

DarkJedi wrote:

This is another of those things and maybe we should take the hint and focus on what is really important and that we understand much better.

I personally do not believe in any of the stuff about being gods and creating our own worlds, etc. Likewise, while I do believe there is evil and opposition in all things (yin and yang, darkness and light, etc.) I do not believe in a literal Satan.

I totally get that we shouldn’t focus on these types of things, but it is very surprising how much I hear this casually talked about– so I wanted to know the truth of it.

I no longer have any idea what the afterlife holds. I know what I hope for, and that’s all I have. It was interesting watching the show, The Good Place, and realizing that the idea of a “medium place” is nuanced. I think if there is an afterlife and “different kingdoms” then I would think that if you have eternity that you could progress and become “better”, but I don’t know if you could become a God.

Same Bee wrote:

I’m inclined to think there is more to it. I have been to places which oozed evil even though no one was around. Other things I will not discuss on here.

I also don’t know if there is a hell or a Satan, but I have definitely felt that same thing.

[VioletFire]

I think this is a super interesting question because back in the early days of the church women gave healing blessings all the time to other women. They didn’t claim to have the priesthood but just did it in the name of Jesus Christ. I agree with the other poster it seems to be about “proper authority”, but I wonder how necessary that is.

[VioletFire]

Thanks for all the replies. I’m so sorry it’s taken me so long to respond but I have been lurking here reading the replies and many of the other posts.

Heber13 wrote:

My wife is not TBM, and we both stay. We are both remarried after failed temple sealings, and learned a lot through those experiences. Our kids get benefits from church as we keep them involved…having good mormon friends and activities is a good thing, good standards while dating and going through high school is of benefit. We get good things from it as a family. It is good to be reminded of good lessons and find opportunities to connect with others and serve others and think about God in our lives.

Thanks for your reply Heber. Do your children know that you guys are not TBM? How do you talk to them about it? Do you live all the standards still? I think this is my biggest concern. I don’t care about alcohol or coffee or anything, but man getting into some gym shorts at night without garments on sure does make me happy.

AmyJ wrote:

I stay because of family and community (it’s complicated). I stay because I haven’t found anything else to “trade up” for. I stay because leadership roulette has played out in my favor and the upper leadership hasn’t tried to shove me out the door, but rather has cultivated an environment where we work together to communicate and find balance..

I think I am mostly staying because of family and community right now. And I totally agree that I haven’t found anything to trade up for. I just don’t know how I feel about my children being told about stories glorifying people like Brigham Young. I got back and forth a lot.

dande48 wrote:

I attend Church and all the ward activities. I contribute in class where I can, and am careful not to toss around any heresy. I chose not to hold a TR or calling, and I don’t clean the Church.

I am leaning more and more to not holding a TR if I stay. As time passes I wear my garments less. They are very uncomfortable and hot. I don’t even care about the modesty thing– they are just so dang uncomfortable! We went on vacation recently and I didn’t wear them at all. It was so freeing. I felt like I could enjoy my time outdoors so much more. I was way more present and in the moment because I didn’t feel like I was sweating to death. It was such an amazing feeling. I wish I could feel that free here. Do you have children? How do you broach the subject with them?

I’m ok with helping out with activities or whatnot, but I don’t feel like I’m in a position to teach any longer or to have a calling that commits me to being there every sunday.

dande48 wrote:

There’s this episode of Rick and Morty (S02 E05, around the 12:20 mark), which really stuck out to me. To summarize the plot: A giant alien “head” visits earth. As part of their reality TV series, they subjugate the “lesser races” to participate in an “American Idol”-like competition. The main protagonist, Rick, knows what’s going on, but the rest of the populace does not. Because the head is so giant, its enormous gravity causes all sorts of natural disasters. Combined with a number of misinterpretations with what the giant head says (it speaks to and judges Rick’s “Get Schwifty” performance, but the whole world, oblivious, can hear it), a cult forms around worshiping the giant head. The Smith family joins this cult, especially when they see the positive influence it has on their daughter, Summer Smith. She gets good grades, as much improved morals, isn’t getting pregnant, is super respectful toward her parents. BUUUTTT… the cult also has some negative aspects. For example, it sacrifices the “sinners” (ranging from goths, to people who talk during movies), to the Great Head in the Sky, by strapping them to a bunch of balloons and letting them drift away.

Haha I have seen this episode actually. Thanks for sharing this anecdote. This is a very true statement, and it actually makes me wonder I’m staying at all. I don’t want my children being taught that Mom and Dad are sinners because we don’t go to church every week and don’t wear garments. I am starting to wonder if down the line a non denominational church would be better for us. I do enjoy my community and neighbors though and not being out the “outs” with all our TBM family. I definitely don’t expect too much and love your “just friends” analogy. I think I’d be okay with a more casual relationship with the church and staying but not sure how it’d effect our children. I think my husband is really nervous about that.

Roy wrote:

DW and I have had this discussion often. She was worried about confusing the children by exposing them to different ways of doing things. Ultimately, I feel that indoctrinating them in black and white terms may be the bigger disservice. I want my children to be positive, productive, flexible, and respectful. I want them to know that drinking beer does not disqualify someone from being a good person. I also want them to know that an individual being kind of judgey about other people drinking beer does not disqualify them from being a good person.

How do you discuss church with your kids? Do they feel torn by what their parents do and what they are taught? I’ve also thought about staying in the church casually but maybe attending different churches occasionally so they can understand people believe different things, but I wonder if that would just confuse them more. I read an article recently that talked about when children see their religious parents teaching things but not acting on those things then their kids are more likely to be athiest.

Roy wrote:

It is more than just my wife that tethers me to the church. In fact, sometimes after a frustrating event DW is tempted to stop going to the LDS church that we might more fully participate in a different church where we have friends. I tend to talk her down from these impulses as I know that she would regret and mourn the loss of some of our LDS specific benefits eventually. My kids, my parents, my in-laws, uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces, and nephews are all part of the LDS heritage tapestry. I am not particularly anxious to sever myself from that sense of belonging.

This here is probably my biggest reason for staying. It’s such an interesting line to balance though. It’s also all I’ve ever known.

Also Heber13 wrote about his son being reached out to, and I do agree it is nice having that safety net of people. It’s nice to know wherever you go there is a group of people you can belong with.

There’s a lot of pros and cons to staying. For now we are definitely staying, but more as casual friends. I think we are going to have to get more of a game plan as the kids get older and start understanding things better. Man oh man do I hope two hour church happens because I think that would help the ward to consider us more active haha.

[VioletFire]

On Own Now wrote:

Positive toward what? God? the Church? your respect for your cousin? Polygamy? Inclusivity? Exclusivity? Tithing? Temple worthiness? Temple attendance? Temple appreciation?

…

I find it helpful for me not to get into the ‘why’. I have zero discussions about specific doctrines or history that concern me. In this way, my belief belongs only to me and is not open for debate. When I do have a heart-to-heart conversation with a loved one about my situation, I explain that I’m no longer a believer, but that I love and respect the Church and the people in it and I don’t do anything to work against Church or Faith. It seems to me, you could make this same statement to either of your two cousins and work toward mutual love and respect in either case.

I think I put up a TBM front because I’m not in the place to have any discussions about my personal beliefs yet. I’m not even sure what I believe. So I guess that’s what I mean by positive image. I do have a positive attitude towards the church though. I think it’s a good thing but I do think there’s a lot of things wrong. I don’t really believe in the church literally anymore. I do like the plan of salvation though and hope that some aspect of that is true. I also think clean living is good and focusing on having a positive relationship with god is good. But I’m not ready to talk about those things.

I love what you said about your belief only belonging to you and isn’t open to debate. I would love to find a way to say that to both TBM and “antis” without revealing too much.

I mean maybe eventually I will be willing to reveal more. But not now.

[VioletFire]

mom3 wrote:

High Five to you for coming up with a safe and honest answer in a moment of crisis. Well done.

At this time, try just being a listener. This is major stakes poker. Don’t grimace, flinch, or hint at any card in your hand. Let them do the talking. Practice laughing off pressure or as they do in politics – Pivot. (Pivot is changing the subject to something your comfortable talking about, but it takes prepping enough so it comes off like a breeze.)

Thanks. It was pretty direct in questioning though. He said, “How’s your testimony. Are you struggling with anything right now? Lots of people are struggling right now.” So it is pretty hard to just be a listener. The pivoting thing is great and what I tried to do by admitting the polygamy thing. And then I switched the conversation over to a show I’m watching that touches on women’s rights and whatnot. For some reason I think that this pivoting thing is going to be harder from the other side of questioning though. From the more “anti-side” of the family.

Heber13 wrote:

If you step back and look at a family that may be trying to “pick sides and recruit to their side” I wonder if bridging those sides with loving and compassionate responses is always best…even if others won’t really understand where you are at…that’s ok. You don’t want to participate in the division of the family. You want to love and accept everyone whatever they think or believe.

And that goes for the TBM point of view too…love and respect their view equally. Especially while you are still figuring things out.

Thanks for your insight. I don’t see all of this family all the time. We used to get together a lot more but haven’t as much recently. I see a few cousins in smaller groups probably once a month. And these people aren’t arguing at the big events about everything. I think these conversations are happening in smaller get togethers. Everyone still gets along well for the most part. And I definitely love everyone from all the sides and understand their point of views. Religion is such a personal matter- I think I just wish more people would treat it that way.

SilentDawning wrote:

Get over feel yicky about it — I get some satisfaction out of “playing the game” and knowing I’m prevailing in maintaining orthodoxy while avoiding any negative consequences from my local leaders or family. Set your achievement motivation on that goal. Not on being authentic. we aren’t wholly authentic with people anyway (when was the last time you told an incompetent boss they are incompetent?). Discretion and being an effective person means knowing what to keep close to the vest and what to share openly, and what to wordsmith lest you offend people uneccessarily.

I think most of the ickyness comes from feeling “interrogated” more than from not being totally authentic. Almost like a violation of my privacy if that makes sense? Like when people ask you really inappropriate private questions.I know I do need to realize this will probably become more of a thing though and do need to get over it to an extent. The authentic thing is a little hard. I said we are temple recommend holders but that won’t be true when they expire. My husband stopped paying tithing. I will probably pay tithing on the small supplemental income I make so I can keep mine. We only go to church about half the time, but we aren’t interested in alcohol or anything and if he wanted to have a temple recommend he could just start paying tithing again and we’d be hunky doory.

SamBee wrote:

If you are active and have a temple recommend, what is the problem? They really need to be told to butt out. Maybe their behavior has helped drive people out.

Like I said above we still have them, but won’t when they expire at least my husband won’t but I will still keep mine. We still consider ourselves semi-active. I totally agree about people butting out. What do you say then? Like “we are still active, and this conversation is really weird?” I am not even sure.

dande48 wrote:

Your first cousin feels their faith is under threat. Their confidence is shaken by the other cousins leaving, so he’s doubling down. And then there’s the whole LDS doctrine on how we’re held accountable if we don’t do all we can to “save” those around us (Jacob 1:19). Your second cousin feels hurt by the Church, and is probably feeling pretty bitter. They want “justice”, which more or less boils down to having their views validated, AND undermining the Church as much as they can.

This is very accurate. My second cousin is older and has been through a lot of difficult things in her life. She got divorced last year and I know she’s gay. She hasn’t come out to me personally but I have known for a long time now. So maybe she wants to tell me about it and tell me how the church is wrong. And honestly I haven’t viewed homosexuality as sin for a very long time, even before my faith crisis so I can definitely sympathize with her.

Overall I am worried faithful cousin might know the truth. I did confide in a different cousin, cousin “Maddy” a while ago. We are closer and she told me she no longer believes in polygamy and her husband didn’t believe in a lot of things anymore. She is still very TBM though. I confided in her a little more about a lot of my doubts. I told her I wasn’t really sure of anything though and to please not tell anyone while I’m figuring things out. She agreed. I really hope she didn’t let is slip to this first faithful cousin though. He even dropped about “Maddy’s” husband that he was done. And I was like, are you sure about that? Because I’m pretty sure he still believes in the Book of Mormon and stuff. And my faithful cousin was like, maybe he does, but he is still done. I’m pretty sure he still goes to church and stuff so my faithful cousin is being weird about his definition of done. Also he mentioned that Maddy herself is questioning now. Maddy has some problems with things but she is still very faithful and loves the gospel and the temple is very important to her so I personally think faithful cousin is being dramatic.

[VioletFire]

Quote:

I wish we could make room for JS and others to have been wrong about important doctrinal issues (polygamy) while still being the right person at the right time for God to accomplish the task of setting up the church

Roy do you think it’s possible for JS to have been wrong about polygamy and still be a prophet? Also how is the world do I get people’s names to appear when I quote them? Sorry I’m new at this.

Anyway back to the CES letter. I was one of those people that hadn’t really done any research and had heard things here and there when I read it. I feel like it rocked me, but also I didn’t love the tone of Runnel’s letter. It felt antagonistic. I agree that many of fair mormon’s arguments are weak. It’s always good to look at both sides though. I’m new here and new to this middle mormon way, but I think if you talk about it with others I would be careful to approach it as trying to understand rather than accusing the church of lying (like Runnels approach).

[VioletFire]

Quote:

Several people have said that you can pay online discretely to avoid this issue

I’ve heard of this. I will have to look into it. I heard if you set it up though you have to request for it to be anonymous now.

Thanks Dark Jedi for the talk. I will take a look at it this evening. Uchtdorf is my favorite.

Quote:

If you are interested, I wrote the following back in 2008, describing why I have never experienced a dark night of separation:

Thank you! I will read that this evening as well. I appreciate you sharing your story.

Quote:

Issue 2: Leadership requests for explanations (at any time).

You have to train your spouse what you will say if either of you are approached individually. Otherwise, give vague hope, and don’t give any specifics. Don’t talk about doubt!!! Never! And don’t imply any sin. Affirm what you like about the church, and if you can even say you value any spiritual experiences, and call them testimony (even if really week, or if they only made you faithful in a previous era of your life), affirm this.

This seems a little tricky. If it’s not doubt or sin and they are alluding to it, it’s like why did I suddenly change? It’s good advice though and I will have to come up with a plan along those lines of what to say.

Quote:

Also, recognize the church works very well for many people, and your kids may be such people Would it be so bad if they embrace Mormonism and become dedicated churcgoers, tithe payers and members of the church? I see no bad in that. And taken with the training I gave them in less orthodox positions on matters of church culture, you have the potential to create very good members who exempllify the good in Mormonism and not the negatives.

Silentdawning I agree that it’s not really a bad thing.

Quote:

It can seem like there is no way out, but as the years slip by, as you find your own path — and find it brings peace — you realize the church is really a mirage and has very little power over you — unless you give it to them.

I hope I can get to this place where I am comfortable with myself and my place in the church and in life. Thank you.

[VioletFire]

Thanks again everyone for the great advice and information. I think I may still be in denial that all of this is happening. My heart and my mind tell me different things, but I know it can’t go back to the way it was. However I come out of this it will be different- I’m just not sure how different yet.

Quote:

I found it interesting to go back to the Jewish roots of Tithing and the principles behind it when I was pondering the tithing situation.

I’ll have to look into this. All I ever hear in the defense for tithing is that it was in the Bible. It’s funny though, does any other religion really require 10% of your income? Also AmyJ thanks for the thread on being authentic with your children. That was very helpful to read and I’ll keep searching for more information.

Quote:

In this or other bishops interviews I find it helpful to not divulge too much information – especially any that might make him defensive by attacking or criticizing the church or challenging the bishops authority

I definitely see the importance in not revealing to much, and those responses you listed are really smart ways to deal with it, thank you. My husband and I may need to find a compromise on this like you two did. I need to figure out what’s important. I do think a TR may be more important to me. I still want to believe so badly when I read apologist statements, but then things like polygamy make physically ill when I think about it and read about it in our history. I also strongly dislike it when members imply that I’m selfish for never wanting my husband to get sealed to another woman if I died later in life. Well joke’s on them now I guess because my husband probably doesn’t even believe in the church anymore.

Quote:

With the above in mind, tithing is one of those things that’s mostly opinion. There are people here who don’t pay tithing and they don’t hold TRs. There are also people here who pay on gross, or pay on net, or lots of iterations between those two (no tithe on FICA, no tithe on tax, whatever) and there are those who pay on what’s leftover after bills are paid. Most of these people do hold TRs if they want to.

Thank you for your post. I get that tithing is between me and God I just think that if we go from being full 10% (net) tithing payers to only paying like $1,000 for the year the Bishop would be rather skeptical and my high-guilt conscience would get the best of me and I’d word vomit my feelings everywhere. So I definitely need to go in with a plan, but we have time to figure that out.

Quote:

Likewise there are several good TR threads, the best of which (IMO) are pinned to the top of the History and Doctrine section.

I will check that out, thank you!

Quote:

I’d only see it as hypocritical if I expected them to behave in ways I wouldn’t behave.

This is some good food for thought. I think I still want to follow most of the church teachings, but be a little more lax.

Quote:

I have a different perspective on missions. I was the only member of my family to join the church and my family was very upset when I decided to serve a mission but it was what felt called to do at the time, so I went.

I’m glad you had a good experience. I’m probably over thinking things. It’s crazy though to go from having my entire life rules and thinking set up to deciding for myself what is best.

[VioletFire]

Thank you so much everyone for your support. It’s so nice to know I’m not alone. Going through all this feels very isolating. I think I may still be in a denial stage that this is all happening. My heart and my mind tell me different things, but I know it can’t go back to the way it was.

AmyJ thank you. I think my husband and I are definitely going to have to mull over the tithing thing. I need to find a way to feel honest but also avoid awkwardness (if possible). Thanks for your perspective on raising children. It’s so hard because I feel like the church sees things from black and white. I think my husband would almost rather be done because it sounds easier to him with kids but I still really want to stay in some capacity and make it work. He’s open to that especially since both our families are very much in it. Expanding our network sounds like a great idea. I also appreciate what you said about learning good lessons like reverence from church.

Dande48 I get how those beginning questions would be hard to answer. It seems difficult navigating being true to yourself and not rocking the boat sometimes. I’m glad you found what works for you. I like your perspective of making others places temples- places to meditate and find spirituality. We still have about a year left before our recommends expire and to the end of the year to figure out tithing so I imagine we have a lot of time to mull things over. There’s so much to think about.

[Author]

Posts