[Watcher]

DarkJedi wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

Also, if the purpose is to try to preach a particular view or just a mental exercise with doctrines as the foundation, this is not the right forum. This is a support group, not primarily a place merely to discuss or debate doctrine. Doctrinal discussions occur, but it should be in the context of our mission.

I agree with Old Timer here Watcher. By your own admission your questions are loaded, and clearly designed to bring us to one answer – your point of view. The flaw is that some of your questions could have different answers than what is taught in Sunday School. For example, I don’t necessarily believe we’re fallen from grace and that’s not the meaning of the fall of Adam. Either way, I believe the so called fall was necessary and planned and part of what we all knew and agreed to in the premortal council, and it was not a horrible tragedy.

That said I also agree with Roy. I hope and believe my reunion with my Heavenly Parents will be a wondrous event beyond mortal description. The God who weeps does so not because we have offended God with sin but because of that which we have had to endure.

Thank you for your post. I am honored that you have taken time to respond. I am an individual that is very driven with logic. I find, especially in the Gospel of John, the logic Jesus uses in dealing with the Scribes and Pharisees to be of great interest and importance – usually pointing to a singular conclusion quite different than what is generally excepted by those in authority at the time. It is also interesting to me that his logic and suggestions greatly inflamed the Scribes and Pharisees.

I will try to explain some of my logic. As a scientist I find that our universe is very hostile towards mortal life as we understand it. It appears to me that mortal life is a great exception in our universe and not and inevitable evolutionary conclusion. I say this as a believer in evolution – that all life on earth has evolved from a single source. The problem is that for all our efforts we only have proof of life here on earth and even though life exists here – over 99% of the species that have existed here have become extinct. Even our earth is extremely hostile towards mortal life as we understand it. Everything living here will eventually die. There is, I believe, a preponderance of evidence that nothing in this universe is consistently merciful towards any mortal life as we understand it. Death, which appears to be the ultimate non merciful result to mortal life as we understand it – is inevitable and without any exception. This is why I believe we have fallen from grace.

However, I do not believe all is lost. I believe that our intelligence continues beyond death of our mortal self. I believe you agree, judging from what I understand of your posts. I believe the greatest and most honest support we can offer to each other is that there is reason for joy in the obviously difficult journey we are taking as mortals. I suggest we begin by becoming thankful toward G-d for all our mortal life opportunities. I understand you are an individual of authority in this forum. I am considering your suggestion that I no longer post on this forum and I am very thankful and intend to provide my best support while I am allowed to post.

[Watcher]

Old-Timer wrote:

Looking at suffering as a good thing is either a privilege of those who suffer less than others or a coping skill to keep from shattering.

I know people who have suffered horribly. It broke some of them, in multiple, terrible ways. There was nothing redemptive in it.

So, in summary: Everything is what we make of it – but we don’t all have the ability to choose what we make of it – and, sometimes, it makes of us what we don’t want to become.

This is a primary reason I believe so deeply in grace.

I thought to pose a question for the forum and I determined that your post may be the best to use. I hope that you do not think I am picking on you – this is not my intent. It seems to me that most posters on this forum are quite resistant to suffering as both necessary and a divinely inspired benefit for our mortal experience. Thus, my question is not just to you but the forum. My question is not just a single question but rather a series of loaded questions. Please allow me to begin:

1. Is the Plan of Salvation given of G-d?

2. Is the fall of Man a necessary element of the divinely created Plan of Salvation? (The obvious option is that if the fall is not necessary then the Plan of Salvation has a serious flaw – which implies that G-d and his plan for mankind is flawed)

3. Is it possible that man could fall from the grace of G-d and his Kingdom of heaven and not experience suffering? (Granted that grace is restored via the Atonement of Christ but we have many historical accounts of both ancient and modern Saints that suffered many seemingly unreasonable inflictions of pain – including physical, mental, spiritual and emotional)

Are we not told in scripture that during our mortal experience that we ought to have faith and be believing and all things will turn out for our good? Please note that there is not an exception given for any act of suffering regardless of the seeming uselessness of it.

And so, my final question is – should we not have joy (or be able to find joy) in encountering that which will turn out for our good and benefit? Could the reason that joy is not experience because of lack of faith and believing? Is it possible that finding joy is greatly different than having fun or being amused?

[Watcher]

Many thanks for all responses. I pondered if I should respond to each of the posts but decided to attempt a more general response. My first step in determining what possible intent all mortal life must experience – was to determine what every mortal must (regardless of all things possible) experience. In other words, what is the lowest common denominator for all mortals. As I listed in the initial post – I could only come up with two must happen experiences. The first is to obtain a physical body. The second is the experience of suffering pain and death.

The reality is that there are many individuals whose mortal experience lasts but for a few moments and the aggregate of all of those moments are spent suffering pain and eventual death. Granted there are some individuals that experience many other things but the reality is that there is no one – not even the son of G-d that is born – and then leaves mortality without suffering and death. This indicates to me that suffering and death is absolutely necessary. If there is something else that is absolutely necessary then in order for there to be a G-d of truth and justice – then everyone that chose to participate in mortality – must, by right be given that experience.

A while back the Gospel Doctrine class was discussing dealing with trials. It seemed to me that the discussion was turning towards a lot of depressing ideas concerning facing the trials of mortality. I am a person that must connect logically to something before I can understand it, comprehend it or believe it. As I thought on this subject – I had the thought the perhaps we should choose to learn to enjoy our trials and so I shared that thought. My wife was a little upset with this comment and said to me that it cannot be a trial if we are enjoying it.

Perhaps I should give a little background to how I was taught by my parents. A saying of my parents was that the secret of life is not achieving what you want but in learning to love doing the right things that will enviably bring or result in what you want. My father who was born poor ended up very wealthy would often have individuals come to him for advice on how to become wealthy. His answer was always the same and was a two-step process. The first step he said was to learn to love and enjoy hard work. Do not learn to endure work but to find joy in doing the tasks that others avoid. The truth is that if you cannot find joy in something – you will eventually quit doing it.

The second step is to learn to love taking a portion of your earning and investing it. He would tell people that if you cannot find joy in these two steps – you will never be happy. You will ether be unhappy because you “have to” work or you will be unhappy because you do not have enough money to do what you want and love doing.

My thought is that it is impossible to enjoy mortal life if you cannot find any joy in enduring suffering and eventually death – because those are the only sure thing in mortality. I would be interested in any arguments that there is anything else guaranteed in our mortal existence.

[Watcher]

Roy wrote:

When our third child was stillborn I was very frustrated that there were no definitive pronouncements about what would happen to her in the eternities.

Did she count as a living soul that was sealed to us under the covenant and would therefore be returned to us to raise in the millennium? The word from the church leaders was, “Maybe.”

I had a hard time accepting that. If the prophet didn’t know the answer then he could just ask G-d and then get back to me.

It has taken me a long time to come to peace with not knowing.

I now accept that everyone with a stillborn child can come up with an idea of what will happen that is most meaningful to them.

Maybe what happens will be up to the desire of each individual set of parents.

I feel that heaven is similar. We don’t “know” a whole lot about it. Over the centuries, many people have imagined their hopes and dreams and projected that onto the construct of heaven. Some of that might work for me and some of it might not.

My thinking revolves quite a bit around 1 Corinthians 2:9

Quote:

Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”

I imagine that our attempts to speculate what heaven will be like might only scratch the surface of what G-d has in store.

Perhaps we will all be right on some particulars. I also imagine that we will all be wrong about other details. However, I believe that even in being wrong there will be no shame – only wonder and amazement at how much better the reality is from what we had envisioned.

Thank you for your contribution, Roy. As I was reading your comments, I thought of the SIFY writer Arthur C. Clarke that said in essence that any civilization with sufficiently advanced technology will be ununderstood (unexplainable) and thought of as magic. I have often pondered transporting one of my distant ancestors to my home for a day. How would I explain the internet, TV and facetiming someone on a different continent? Even if I gave them a cell phone to take back with them – it would not work in their past environment, and no one would be able to discern the components or how to reverse engineer it without the infrastructure of both technologies and knowledge to support it.

I have often wondered if at some distance time we (and other religious thinkers) meet with G-d and he takes us with him for a tour of Heaven (Celestial Kingdom) and when we see who is there and what they are about that we ask G-d if this is really heaven? He would respond with the notion that it is just one of many possibilities. And then we explain what we hoped that heaven would be. In turn G-d tells us that there is such a heaven that has been prepared just for us and those that desire such a heaven but it is not where he permanently resides.

I do not know what will happen to children that are still born. But from what I understand of the Plan of Salvation (Plan of Happiness) is that what ever happens it will be the best possibility for that child that fulfills both theirs and your agency and all such things were known and agreed upon in our pre-existence.

[Watcher]

Kipper wrote:

Last night at a dinner party with a few couples from the ward one conversation came up about a stake president who was talking to a visiting Elder Bednar and he mentioned that he challenged some individuals to…I don’t remember exactly what…but Elder Bednar’s reply to the stake president was intriguing to me. He said when you give that challenge substitute the word challenge for encourage. That to me was meaningful because I have always had an issue with the “challenge” flowed down to members as sounding more like “…I bet you aren’t capable of…prove me wrong” and my internal response is always I don’t accept your challenge. I would however respond to encouragement, makes it sound like it’s for my own good not somebody else’s expectation. For instance, being challenged to read the BoM in a certain amount of time or a whole list of other challenges I’ve heard over the years. Why does this bug me? I thought the recommendation was great advice and I mistakenly remarked that the word “challenge” has been used for many years to which almost everyone at the table at the same time said “it still is”! It was kind of like a warning shot over my bow. Will I never be able to submit totally to all direction, unconditionally walking in step? Why do I have such a problem with being led around without questions? Am I in jeopardy of being a critic of leadership? I’m sure having a hard time assimilating.

Sometimes words have consequences. I have never had a problem with leadership – but I have resistance and sometimes bitterness with those that think they have authority over others. Sometimes people speak their thoughts that I interpret very differently than what they intended. For whatever reason – those that I have gone through trauma with – I tend to understand and respect regardless of their poor choice of terms.

[Watcher]

I have opinions that may be different than most posting on this forum. I think much of what we experience in mortality will still exist in heaven. I do believe that there is good and evil, and I think we experience the difference in mortality, with the exception that I am thinking we will not be shielded or limited in heaven (or whatever life we find ourselves in the resurrection) from good or evil.

I am of the opinion that evil and its side kick, chaos – is the “natural” default of all things both physically and spiritually. That to be associated with good we must constantly maintain and keep renewals of good but that evil – like weeds in a garden – will take over whenever good is neglected. I am of the mind that the war between good and evil (light and dark) will be much more prevalent in heaven. I speculate that some will be very reliant and dependent on the mercy of those much more diligent in keeping darkness and evil at bay. Much like we all are dependent on G-d currently.

I believe some will become masters of discipline and that they will be free to have dominion over themselves that those that they shepherd – others I believe will remain dependent on those that protect and oversee heaven.

As far as enjoyment – I believe that all will enjoy and receive the blessings of heaven. I do believe that some will be like G-d and out of love share with and shepherd others. As a youth I would often complain about what was expected of me – My father would always remind me that there are two kinds of willing individuals in any society, country or community – those that are willing to work and contribute and those that are willing to let them.

I wonder if there are two kinds of attitudes among the citizens in the kingdoms of heaven – those that are willing to sacrifice for the benefit of others (the givers) and those that are willing to let them (the takers). I am of the opinion that this is not two or even 3 territories divided by and fine boundary with everybody on one side or the other but rather a spectrum kind of what is explained in Abraham chapter 3 but with the caveat that generally the spectrum will be known as 3 types of givers and takers.

I think the flaw in many attitudes of Christians is that they are mostly concerned about what they will get – their blessings, their glory, the mercy they get, their salvation and not so much on their sacrifices, their forgiveness of others, their mercy and their love for others. I include myself because I often do not care that much of others that scoff and belittle those things, I hold sacred.

[Watcher]

I cannot account for anyone but myself. I am a 5th generation member of the church. I cannot say I have ever had what is called a “crisis of faith”. I was beside my mother at her bed as she passed. Her last words to me were that I was the most difficult child of our large family but that she loved me dearly. She also hinted that I was somewhat difficult as an adult. I was not a rebellious kid just very curious and my goal growing up was to launch something into outer space. I grew up loving logic, math, physics and science as the hope of finding success to my goal. I also became acquainted with both the police and FBI through my experiments.

I also grew up knowing church leaders and was close to Elder Hugh Brown and very much enjoyed trying to stump him with my questions. I have personal connections with several of our general authorities. I also grew up knowing (conversing personally with) Hugh Nibley. For anyone knowing the history of the physics department at BYU – I also grew up knowing Dr. Harrison and Dr. Hall. I thought such individuals to be a norm rather than an exception. I guess the closest I have come to a crisis of faith is trying to get out of and far from the shadow of those that had grand expectations for me.

I have always had a dislike of management and leadership – especially and mostly for those that aspire to make themselves leaders. I personally have not known many members of the Church that aspire to leadership and the few that have wanted leadership and achieved it – have not lasted long. My experience with church leadership is quite different than my experiences in the corporate world, the military, politics, education and society in general.

I am most likely one of the members others complain about. I honestly do not understand or know how to deal well with complainers. It may not be the worse of my faults, but I am sure it ranks up there. I have to be most careful or else I will turn into a complainer myself – complaining about the complainers. My one redemption in all this is my most caring wife. She is my polar opposite and has great empathy and compassion for those struggling. She reminds me daily to be more compassionate – compassion is perhaps my crisis of faith. I could never be a church leader and am grateful I have never been in leadership beyond bishop counselor. I have quit my job at work rather than being forced into management. But I am quite sure as bad as leadership is in this world that most of those being led are just as poor or worse at their job in following as the leaders are in leading. And above it all, I am convinced no one has ever succeeded at anything by complaining.

And yet I recently read an article that referenced a study that the majority of current college students are suffering mental illness and in need of help – including counseling and medication. If there is a need in leadership for those with experience in faith crisis – perhaps there is less to worry about because there will soon be a lot of experience to rely on in the future.

[Watcher]

DarkJedi wrote:

Watcher wrote:

It is my understanding that patriarchal blessings are not revelation for the general church. I have also speculated that patriarchal blessings can be contingent on various factors. I speculate that this is a primary reason that blessings given to an individual should not be made public. Like you – I have also wondered about human errors. I know I have made many myself in pursuit of magnifying my callings and priesthood responsibilities.

If PB are revelation at all, and I have my serious doubts, they are certainly only meant for the individual. I believe the reason members are discouraged from sharing has nothing to do with sacred things and little to do with things meant only for them. I suspect the main reason we’re discouraged from sharing is that everybody will realize how generic and alike they really are. And, not sharing protects the church when those who are blessed to see the second coming in the flesh (or any other “out there” promise) doesn’t happen. Mine appears to be longer than most I’ve seen, but you could slap any other name on there and it would be just as applicable – despite its length, it’s pretty generic and I bet very similar to many others given by that same patriarch around the same time.

As to human errors, yes, we all make them, we’re human. I am willing to own up to my mistakes and take responsibility for them. Most church leaders are not, probably because that would demonstrate fallibility. I know I’m not infallible, many do not know that they are also not infallible and try to hide behind the “cloak of the priesthood.” There’s that old saying “Catholics say the pope is infallible but don’t really believe it; Mormons say the prophet is fallible but don’t really believe it.” Beyond Uchtdorf’s hint of the idea mistakes may have been made, the church could gain a lot of traction by admitting it and its leaders are not always right and sometimes they don’t treat people (or groups of people) right.

Quote:

I am a little curious considering you opinion as posted on this forum. Do you believe that such errors (or BS as you have noted) will have any effect on anyone’s standing beyond this life? If not (thinking that such is consistint with your thoughts) – why do you bring it up? Why are you concerned?

It’s not the human errors that are BS, it’s the apologetics. I have no problem with apologists (defined as defenders of the faith) themselves, but I also understand why some (like Terryl Givens ) eschew the label. Like everything else, I can believe what apologists say or not – I have free will in that respect and I exercise it. The problem I really have is with some of the apologetics (not apologists per se) themselves. Let’s take a fictional modern Job as an example. Let’s say our Job consistently does everything he’s supposed to do, multiple daily prayers, family prayer, FHE, accepting any and all callings and doing his best, fasting more than just fast Sunday, reading the BoM every day, going to the temple regularly and doing work for his own ancestors, paying a generous tithe on more than gross and generous with other offerings as well – you name it, he does it, the truest and bluest of all church all the time Mormons. Then a big bump in the road comes along, let’ say he loses his job and can’t find one on which he can support his family. And for the sake of argument, let’s say he does take multiple minimum wage jobs where he’s working 7 days a week 12-18 hours a day (he’s doing what he can). His bishop’s advice is continue doing what he’s doing (including all the church stuff, but especially fasting, prayer, and reading the BoM) and he will be blessed with a job. Ditto from the SP. Our Job has faith that they are correct. This goes on for over a year, while he’s already been doing all of these things leading up to this time all of his life (including of course being an Eagle Scout, serving a mission, and marrying a worthy woman in the temple). What is the likely response he’ll get from the True Believing Mormon (TBM)? “You’re not doing enough” and/or “You’re not doing it right.” (Don’t try to tell us that’s not true, more than one of us here have been there and done that.) That guy is going to believe some combination of he’s done something wrong or offended God in some way, that there’s some reason he is being cursed, that he is unworthy of God’s blessings, God does not love him, and he’s a worthless piece of crap and similar thoughts. He’ll eventually come to the realization that all of the prayer and fasting and reading the BoM and paying tens (or hundreds) of thousands in tithing, etc., do not bring blessings at all and God and the church are not what he thought they were. But his TBM friends (and maybe his wife who is seeing all this first hand and also suffering) say, “Maybe the answer answer to your prayer was no or not yet” and a myriad of other BS excuses (that’s what they are, BS, because the TBM can’t admit to himself that it isn’t so and it doesn’t really work that way because he hasn’t had the experience).

The question here, although misconstruing what I said, is do I believe people will be held responsible for their errors in this life (or their standing in this life)? My answer is no, as I have previously stated I believe God neither blesses nor curses people in this life. Members and leaders on the other hand can be very judgmental. While I’m at it, I also hope (I usually say believe but it’s really more of a hope than a belief, I’m just speaking Mormonese) the atonement of Jesus Christ to be universal and it won’t affect their standing in any future state either. I bring it up because if I could spare anyone from enduring the extreme pains of a faith crisis, I would, and if apologists would just be honest and not make BS excuses there would be fewer people who do suffer.

Old Timer uses a Harry Potter analogy sometimes. Harry Potter could see thestrals, but most others could not. It is explained that only those who had seen death and had an emotional connection to it could see thestrals. Those who had not could not see the thestrals and some didn’t even believe they exist or doubted that those who could see them actually saw them. You have not given any indication here that you have experienced a crisis of faith with it’s accompanying deep, dark pain (there are levels of the dark night of the soul). Most of us here see the thestrals, I understand why you don’t/can’t. Our job here is not to try to convince anyone they can’t see the thestrals or that the thestrals are something they aren’t, nor is it to convince those who can’t see the thestrals that they actually exist. What we do is empathize (and sympathize) and validate. We’re not here to convince anybody they aren’t experiencing or didn’t experience anything they are/did. Just because it didn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to me, and just because it happened to you when you added X+Y and got Z doesn’t mean it’s going to work the same way with me. I also have not gone to a grove of trees and asked God to forgive me and then seen a vision of God (or Gods). That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to Joseph Smith (or at least JS believed it happened whether I do or not).

Quote:

I apologize if these questions bother you – I am attempting to understand the logic behind your thinking. Thanks for your efforts to converse with me. I find you to be interesting.

I am not that thin skinned. Not everything is logical Spock (or Tuvok or T’Pal). There are many things we humans can’t explain with science or faith. I would guess that Vulcans are resistant to or immune from Jedi mind tricks. Few humans are, thus apologetics (and the church itself) can thrive. It’s not well well known, and it’s only inferred and not depicted in movies and TV, but the Jedi mind trick is temporary. In a short while the individuals who are vulnerable and victims of such tricks end up wondering what the heck they’re doing an why.

My experiences appear to be greatly different than yours. For example, I have come to believe that any principle or spiritual instruction that is given by revelation can only be understood by revelation. Attempting to apply what one thinks to be their own wisdom to such things will inevitably end in disappointment and failure. I have also concluded that the purpose of our mortal probation is not to read scriptures, pray, attend church or any such thing. The only reason or logic to such behaviors is to train and prepare for things that will be. To illustrate this logic, I would refer to white water rafting – which I have done with my family for over 30 years. I would tell those that I was training to be rafting guides that the regardless of what has happened thus far on a river (regardless of how fun or terrifying) the most important thing a guide must do is to turn downstream and prepare themselves and their raft for what is coming next.

I would also make reference to my experience while fulfilling an obligation in the military during the Vietnam conflict. That is to play close attention to those that have experienced serious conflict and survived it. However, there seems to be a problem with those that have no combat experience in relating to what veterans are trying to express. I have seen lives threatened because people tend to hear what they want to hear. There are always exceptions by I have found that in general, the critics of those with experience are more likely to mislead others in their criticism than what the veteran that survived are trying to express. It amazes me how often this misconception is presented as desirable in characters of movies and other entertainment by those that have no real experience themselves. Once again there are always exceptions – I learned that regardless of how bad or foolish the orders of my commander seemed at the time (even considering their experience or lack of it) – it is far better that I do all within my power to carry out such orders as best I could — rather than to criticize and make confusion in the ranks. More will die because of confusion than being united and working together.

But in this life, we have our agency to make what we will of whatever circumstances we face.

[Watcher]

Roy wrote:

Dear friend,

I think that in this analogy the electricity is very predictable. You turn the switch and the light comes on. If you turn the switch and the light doesn’t come on then something went wrong and you can trouble shoot. It is a very reliable formula.

G-d doesn’t seem to work like that. I am still trying to work out if G-d’s promises are being fulfilled but only on his own timetable (sometimes in this life and sometimes not) or maybe some of the promises that have been attributed to G-d were not actually from Him and will never be fulfilled.

Imagine if you turned the switch and the light didn’t go on but you were told that maybe the effect of your action (turning the switch) would make the light go on years from now or even after you have died but that you need to have faith that the light will go on eventually. I feel that like is what people are asked to accept as “faith” and it can be very hard.

Thank you for engaging with me. Perhaps yours and my experiences with electrons are quite different. I agree that electrons are very predictable within the very narrow range of experiences that most of us have with electrons. When I finished college, I gained employment with the government doing research for the military. I will try to make this short. I became convinced that there is a great deal more that we do not know about electrons that what we think we know. Electrons are theorized to be a quantum particle. And yet the stability of electrons is primarily understood in what we call Newtonian and relative physics which can only explain about 5% of what we have learned about our universe.

I cannot account for what others claim are their empirical experiences with G-d. As for me – whenever I have discovered the reason my experiences with G-d have failed it is because of a flaw in my understanding – usually resulting in my relying on someone (someone being a person admittedly who is not loyal to the laws, ordinances and covenants of G-d) else’s defined view of experiences. And then it is more to do about uncertain “doctrines” than anything empirical. For example, the one sure empirical experience of all life as we know it – is that all living things (we) will, of divine necessity, experience suffering and death. Christ, as the example being the son of G-d, demonstrated this by his own suffering and death. For myself, I find the promises of G-d to be more reliable and exact (worthy of faith) than anything I have learned and experienced in a successful lifetime profession in science.

[Watcher]

Old-Timer wrote:

I like the story of Job as a reminder that material possessions have absolutely NOTHING to do with righteousness and as a refutation of the Prosperity Gospel – that God loves the richest and poorest (and everyone between the extremes) exactly alike, with no regard whatsoever for their economic situation – that one’s economic situation has NOTHING to do with righteousness or “blessedness”.

I loath the story of Job being used in any way that detracts from or denies those conclusions.

I also read the story as a grand, epic, allegorical poem – not as historically accurate. I see absolutely no reason to read it literally and important reasons not to do so.

In Sunday School today, we had input from the class members that turned what looked like might have been a literal, righteousness-focused lesson into what I summarized above – with historicity left to each person to decide.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ being lived and taught at the local level can be a balm that overrides broader issues for a lot of members who would struggle otherwise.

Not to disagree but to offer a possible different view. Jesus taught many truths in parables. When asked why he used such references, he instructed his disciples that deep spiritual truths are “hidden” that can only be understood by those that are inspired by the Holy Spirit. I would suggest the possibility that Job is not as useful as history as it is given as revelation and prophesy concerning the righteous.

I would add at this point that the ancient understanding of the righteous are those that obey the law, participate in the sacred ordinances and keep the everlasting covenant (a reference from the ancient poetic format of Isaiah) which addresses wickedness (apostasy) as transgressing the law, changing the ordinances and breaking the everlasting covenant.

I also believe that Job makes a startling reference to Christ as servant vassal acting in behalf of the supreme Suzerain of heaven to oversee mankind and Satan’s effort to corrupt all of mankind. I see Job as a prophetic templet of the trial of the righteous endure through Satan’s temptations. I see the friends of Job as those that succumb to the discerptions of Satan and abandon the teachings of the Holy Spirit.

[Watcher]

Old-Timer wrote:

Over the last few years, I have come to love the idea that “exercising faith” means “choosing how we interpret and act on things based on our hope in the unseen”. Phrased differently, we have the ability and the right to interpret things in any way we want that gives us hope – to be agents unto ourselves – to act and not be acted upon.

For example, I might not accept the “God of the Lost Keys” or the “God as a slot machine” concepts, but I do accept other people’s right to believe those concepts – both generally and in order to accept my very different view(s) as legitimate options.

For what do I hope but not see/know? If I don’t believe I can know something, what interpretation gives me hope in my not knowing – even if that interpretation doesn’t ring true with or irritates or even scares someone else? Consciously allowing myself to choose an interpretation allows me to let go of other interpretations that don’t work for me – without condemning or criticizing or ridiculing people who choose to interpret things differently.

Of course, I recognize the danger of that concept, since some hopes and interpretations are unhealthy or even dangerous, to widely varying degrees, to self and others – but, still, I love the concept. I have come to believe it is a central part of what makes us “fully human” and “partially divine”, and it certainly relates to our mission and focus here.

This subject is of great importance to me. I would compare true faith to what most believe in and have faith in – electrons.

I would point out that no one has ever seen an electron, and no one knows the extent of election capability. But when ever someone goes to turn on a light and that light does not come on – I have never heard anyone that loses faith in electrons – rather they always blame something else. They may begin by thinking that the light has burned our or is not longer working. If they replace the light with one that works but still no light – they will blame the switch or the wiring – but never the electrons. They may think a braker has turned off or even that the power has shut down. Even if all else has failed to be the reason no one thinks it was that electrons have just quit working.

I have often wondered why we tend to have more faith in electrons than G-d? Even as a scientist it does not seem logical to me that it is because we know more about electrons than G-d – and yet that is the only reason I can think of.

[Watcher]

Old-Timer wrote:

Service

People who overcome great difficulties

Love

Children

Music

I really like your answers.

However, for me, I am most inspired by those that are kind towards others when no one is expecting it.

[Watcher]

SilentDawning wrote:

I was in marriage counseling with my wife a year or more ago. I shared something my wife did that really hurt me early in our marriage, and he looked at my wife and said “Do you apologize? Some people don’t”.

This was a revelation for me because my wife doesn’t tend to apologize, and apologies mean a lot to me. I noticed that a person I worked with in the community also didn’t apologize. I wrote to her once about something she did that really hurt me and she responded with a one liner fact, not at all acknowledging that what she did was perhaps insensitive. In fact, later, I reached out to her to repair the relationship, and she called my statement of hurt a “nasty note”.

To me, apologies mean a lot. And I tend to apologize profusely and regularly.

Do you apologize? If not, why not? If so, why? Are apologies from others important to you when they hurt you?

For the record I apologize whenever I am given an opportunity. It does not matter if I am at fault or if the mistake was someone else’s. I have not always been so willing. However, whenever I have taken the time to pray and ask for guidance in disagreements or whatever, where someone has decided to be emotionally stricken – I have always been impressed to apologize. I have also observed that when I apologize things are more likely to turn for the better. I am convinced that when things do not turn for the better that there is nothing that I could have done in addition to make a difference.

I only regret that it took me so long to learn this lesson and if I can pass on any “wisdom” concerning this matter – I seriously wonder why apologizing is made out to be so difficult. If anyone is in any way dissatisfied with my posting – I apologize and ask for your forgiveness.

[Watcher]

DarkJedi wrote:

Watcher wrote:

SilentDawning wrote:

If it’s coming it’s of no real consequence to me, as I’ve already been sifted

30 years ago we were at 11:59 pm of the 12:00 midnight Second Coming. The clock must be ticking AWFULLY SLOWLY. I personally agree with what others said — that the threat of a sifting has been on the books for over a century. I think JS or one of the GA’s in the early church said that the Second Coming might even happen in the lifetime of attendees’ children or something. That ship has sailed…

I have speculated that when a prophesy is spoken of that someone currently alive will live to see the 2nd coming -that it is a reverence that there are individuals of the current generation that will be translated.

A little ward history (I have lived in the same ward for over 30 years but was not here at this time – well, I was, but I wasn’t a member). Back in the 70s a sister in our ward joined the church after marrying a member (they met in college). Our ward did not exist in those days, a branch was formed in the early 80s and we became a ward in the late 80s. This husband moved here with is wife and went to work, she was a stay-at-home mother but did assist some in his business. All of 4 of her siblings lived here (farmers) and all joined the church in the 70s. They all got their patriarchal blessings in the late 70s/early 80s, all by the same patriarch. Our hero was the youngest of the family and at least three of them that I know of were promised in their patriarchal blessings that they would see the Savior’s coming “in the flesh” (apparently this patriarch liked to do that and rumor has it he was directed to stop doing it at some point). Anyway, all but our hero are dead and she is in her late 80s and swiftly declining. The likelihood she is going to see the second coming is about as remote as her siblings’. She still believes she will.

I’ve heard the apologetic BS that “in the flesh” could have been referring to after the resurrection. But it is just that – BS. That patriarch (now long dead) had no business telling people that.

It is my understanding that patriarchal blessings are not revelation for the general church. I have also speculated that patriarchal blessings can be contingent on various factors. I speculate that this is a primary reason that blessings given to an individual should not be made public. Like you – I have also wondered about human errors. I know I have made many myself in pursuit of magnifying my callings and priesthood responsibilities.

I am a little curious considering you opinion as posted on this forum. Do you believe that such errors (or BS as you have noted) will have any effect on anyone’s standing beyond this life? If not (thinking that such is consistint with your thoughts) – why do you bring it up? Why are you concerned?

I apologize if these questions bother you – I am attempting to understand the logic behind your thinking. Thanks for your efforts to converse with me. I find you to be interesting.

[Watcher]

DarkJedi wrote:

I agree with Old Timer, I’m not sure this life is any kind of test. Why would God the Loving Parent whose stated purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of [humans] do that to their children? Do we do that to our own children? And we’re super flawed!

I also don’t buy the multiple kingdoms part, and view that as mostly a tool the church uses to induce fear and guilt. The multiple kingdoms thing doesn’t pass the smell test of multiple authors in multiple books (and at least one of the multiple books must be the Bible).

I do not have the optimism that you have that all the diverse individuals in this life will live happy together forever. I also do not believe that anyone that does not deserve to feel guilty will do so. I do believe in the concept of being careful what we ask for or invest in. Mostly I think that not much will be that different than this life pertaining to what we enjoy doing and who we enjoy doing it with. I have never believed much in a one size fits all kind of entitlement thinking.

[Author]

Posts