[Watcher]

DarkJedi wrote:

Watcher wrote:

I will not pretend that I have authority to speak specifically because I am not called of G-d to do so. Rather I add my witness that in both cases the scriptures are correct and contain the light of truth but even more important that both the scripture references of Elijah and Nephi are prophetic and pertinent to our era which is the Last-days or end of time.

When we’re admitted to the forum we all made a statement of justification for wanting to be here. Yours was

Quote:

To test my logic, reasoning and spiritual content with other and to better understand why other have come to the conclusions they believe important.

I specifically want to know how you came to the conclusion that the stories of Nephi and Elijah are both prophetic and pertinent. Is it because you have a firm belief that the scriptures are all inspired or directly the word of God (a belief I do not share)? Or is there some sound logic or reasoning that brings you to this conclusion?

The “covenant path” has certainly become a catchphrase/buzz word among many of the top and local leaders of the church of late. I have two issues with the idea. 1. a. I’m pretty sure God doesn’t make deals; b. I’m very sure no one can buy their way into heaven; c. I’m also pretty sure God doesn’t favor any one child or group of children over any other child or group of children, supposed promises or covenants notwithstanding. 2. Most of the covenants members supposedly enter into they do without a whole lot of free will, choice or foreknowledge. In my own case I don’t recall ever hearing anything about the “baptismal covenant” (not specifically referenced by that name anywhere in scripture) until well after I was baptized. I was like “Really? I don’t recall promising that.” I was ordained a priest the day after I was baptized, again without any tutoring about any covenant responsibilities, although I can say there was some explanation a few months later when ordained an elder. And then there’s the temple. I think this is somewhat better in some places now since much of it is on the church website (including what covenants we will enter into), but back in the day I had no clue until it came time to make the alleged covenants. What was I (or anyone else) supposed to do then? Truth is I believe the “covenant path” to be nothing more than the usual fear, guilt, and shame the church loves to sell to members.

Thank you for your interest, DarkJedi: I will attempt to answer your questions if only in part. Obviously, I am not a source of much that you say you seek. Never-the-less, during my life I have received two very different types or kinds of witnesses concerning the scriptures. One is spiritual the other Is empirical. Much of my empirical understanding of Nephi and Elijah came during studies while traveling in the Middle East for my work. Please note that both stories have deep roots in Meddle East traditions. For example, beheading has traditional meaning with epoch stories of David and Goliath. David explained to Goliath some of the essence of meaning as to two met on the battlefield.

I will attempt to address your questions. First your concern that G-d does not make deals. How could you have any such idea if you personally have not had any dealings with G-d? If you have had any dealings with G-d then that proves that G-d not only makes deals but you have yourself made such a deal. You will have to explain why this simple logic does not explain deals.

You say you are sure no one can buy their way into heaven. I assume then that you believe there is a heaven, and we currently are not there. Unless you have knowledge of heaven and what is necessary for entry – I do not see how you can be “quite sure”. I do not understand your logic. If there is any entry into heaven, there must be a currency for such entry. If you mean that you do not think mortal man has access to such currency – if that is what you mean then perhaps, we have some common ground.

As for covenants I can only reference my own journey and my understanding. There are many examples of covenant failure, and it appears to me that you think your efforts have ended in failure. I would suggest that it is flawed logic to assume that your failures are proof that success is impossible. Regardless of how many counterfeits that may possibly exist that is not logic or statistical evidence that a genuine does not exist. For a possible solution I would point you to D&C 132 with a particular reference to verse 7 and the need for the Holy Spirit of Promise to “seal” your covenants or contracts (dealings).

I think we must be careful at this point because I wonder if you can point out anything in this mortal existence where you or anyone else has made any knowledgeable choice of anything – in particular, to the conclusion of any choice. To be specific, though I cannot empirically prove all possibilities – yet so far as we know everything that lives will eventually die regardless of any choices – which using the metrics you suggest; all choices are eventually meaningless. If that is really the case and you believe it – Why are you posting on this forum?

Thank you again for your interest.

[Watcher]

Minyan Man wrote:

Is it possible to find one thing that you find comfort in, regarding the gospel, and be active in the church?

The reason I ask is, when I first joined the church, I was excited about everything.

I liked:

– going to church.

– attending & organizing meeting.

– attending SS & PH.

– accepting callings.

– reading scripture.

– socializing.

– even paying tithing & going to the temple.

I liked everything about it. As a result, I thought the gospel had the “answer” to every aspect of my life.

I never questioned things like:

– church history.

– church doctrine (polygamy).

– church policy or administration.

(For the most part, I still don’t question. I do wonder why? sometimes.)

Then my “crisis of faith” came along and everything changed. It didn’t change for the better.

A number of years of complete inactivity passed by. Then we decided to go back to church & see if anything changed.

Since we’ve been attending again, we have accepted one calling only. We do a modified “Ministering” assignments.

We do some socializing but usually one on one not a group or party setting.

My 2nd question: Is that enough or do I have to be “all in” once more?

I do notice one significant change and that deals with Jesus Christ.

He is the focus of my beliefs. Not the church. Not church policy or doctrine. Not Joseph Smith or the current leadership.

That has removed a lot of the pressure I felt before & during my FC.

Greetings Minyan Man: Your post caught my attention because your thinking is so much different from mine. I am very connected to the concept of agency and choice, and I realize we are all different. Hopefully you will not think me too critical but the idea of partial commitment is illogical to me. I have also discovered that lack of commitment is more associated with failure and defeat than success with anything. All my disappointments in life have all come from being less committed than I should – except for being committed towards something I knew to be flawed.

I feel it necessary to explain something. I was in the army for a time during my youth. More out of obligation than by choice or service. I was somewhat disappointed to discover that many of those in my chain of command were incompetent. I quickly realized that if I focused on their incompetence rather than the task at hand (regardless of the foolishness of it) that I would put myself and my comrades in greater danger. There are times it is better to just put one’s efforts into completing a task rather than efforts to improve, for all, a better direction. In short there are often times that it is better to work together and be united than it is to be right. I do not intend to imply this is always the case, but this understanding has served me the better in the partnership of marriage.

If I may, I would highlight Moroni chapter 10. Skip over the part in the first of the chapter that many reference concerning missionary efforts to convert those to the Book of Mormon. In my view the rest of the chapter is far more important and ought to be our focus of Moroni’s last words of counsel for our day. Note the number of times Moroni uses the word “exhort” as he talks about spiritual gifts (individualized genus). We all come into this life with a genus that can benefit all who we encounter and serve. Each of us has the power to do things that no one else can do. I would suggest that whatever it is that we can add – that we do whatever we can (as an act of love and service to Christ) especially concerning that which G-d has given uniquely to us to do.

[Watcher]

nibbler wrote:

A person could start with the assumption that scripture perfectly relates the mind and will of god then work their way backwards from that starting position to rationalize anything and everything that happened in the story. I think this approach leads to more people justifying violence with scripture. If scripture communicates a violent act, it must have been the correct action, now come up with reasons why that’s the case.

Exercising judgment, making a determination about why what happened in the story was the correct behavior.

Compared to an approach where you recognize that scriptures were produced by fallible humans that didn’t have a perfect understanding. People that were doing their best to learn about and understand the world they lived in. With that approach you can start with the story and determine whether or not the story reflects qualities that you’d like god to possess.

Exercising judgement, making a determination about what you feel was good or bad behavior and being open to the idea that the story may not be communicating a good principle.

Watcher wrote:

With this understanding – I am not sure that the light of scripture concerning Elijah is understood well in this thread. Elijah did not kill or even harm the Priests of Baal. The G-d that gave them life took life away. This is not the only example in scripture where covenant breaking resulted in physical death – and perhaps the second death as well.

As covenant saints of G-d we are commanded not to seek to decide ourselves to take anyone’s life but rather to leave such decisions unto G-d (example Nephi).

I believe both stories are figurative, not literal, but there’s a big difference in those two examples. In the case of Nephi, Nephi himself carries out the action. If fire rains down from heaven and kills someone, there’s a better case that could be made that it’s god’s will. A better case but still a weak one. Coincidence is a thing, someone could be using god to explain something unexplainable that they witnessed, and the Father rains fire on the just and on the unjust. If you feel inspired to set someone on fire, it introduces a healthy amount of doubt (or should). Is that inspiration truly from god? How would someone tell if the inspiration was from god, an attempt to beguile from Satan, mental illness, etc. If god wants someone dead, let god do the dirty work.

I’d go down the checklist. Would setting someone on fire be the kind of thing god would inspire someone to do? For me that answer is a definitive no. The “inspiration” must be coming from some other source. Since that’s my answer I have to wonder why Nephi would reach the conclusions he reached. Because he said god told him? How did he know he wasn’t being beguiled, because he said so?

Since I view the action as morally wrong, it’s easier for me to say that Nephi did the wrong thing. I’d much rather believe that a human made a terrible mistake than the alternative, trying to rationalize Nephi’s behavior and lower my conceptualization of god and godlike qualities to match a fallible human’s behavior.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I believe you have touched on some critical ideas, but I believe you many have missed some critical and important eternal principles. We tend to attempt to understand things from our social circle and culture. To understand either scripture we can and ought to study the historical and empirical evidence but in so doing we must (obviously) conclude that something is missing that prevents our understanding to be completed (perfect). This incompleteness is why serious questions cannot be resolved by scripture only. Note that in the Gospel of John, Jesus employs both logic and reference to scripture but that the scripture experts (Scribes and Pharisees) that should have been best prepared, remain unconvinced, even though they had right to sacred covenants.

We can add logic and historical precedence to help us better understand what it means to have a covenant within the framework of the Ancient Near Eastern Kingdom and the relationship of the Supreme Suzerain and his chosen servant vessel and how this relates to the citizens of the Kingdom. Which, BTW parallels closely to the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood referenced in D&C 84.

I will not pretend that I have authority to speak specifically because I am not called of G-d to do so. Rather I add my witness that in both cases the scriptures are correct and contain the light of truth but even more important that both the scripture references of Elijah and Nephi are prophetic and pertinent to our era which is the Last-days or end of time.

[Watcher]

Anciently it was believed that scripture could not be written by any man except through a higher power – then such scripture could not be understood except by that same higher power. As I understand, no light of truth can be understood except through the Holy Ghost (member of the G-d head).

With this understanding – I am not sure that the light of scripture concerning Elijah is understood well in this thread. Elijah did not kill or even harm the Priests of Baal. The G-d that gave them life took life away. This is not the only example in scripture where covenant breaking resulted in physical death – and perhaps the second death as well.

As covenant saints of G-d we are commanded not to seek to decide ourselves to take anyone’s life but rather to leave such decisions unto G-d (example Nephi). There is a problem because there are many that do not know that well the differences between being commanded of G-d and being beguiled by Satan. It really does not often come down to life or death – it is my impression that living by covenant is more than daily acts of Agency; usually in seemingly minor things. And then repentance when we are beguiled. If we are confused because we have not acted of faith and repented when beguiled – our confusion will be well established long before is comes to taking a life.

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