[wayfarer]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

On the veil, I’ve never heard anyone say it was related to modesty. Both men & women have heads covered, but women veil faces only at a specific time, then they unveil them. There is no explanation given as to why, so if anyone says they know, they are making it up. The veils are see through. In context of what is happening, it does seem as though women are being more removed from god, which doesn’t sit well with me. I sometimes use it as a way to get 3-5 minutes of shut eye before the next stage of the endowment.

Given the sexist statements of past leaders, I do think this stuff is probably just tenacious sexism. It’s hard for leaders to change it if 1) they aren’t affected by it personally, 2) it’s become a tradition for them after decades of the same thing, and 3) they don’t know whether it has a divine origin or not.

in my humble opinion, covering is a cultural artifact. one by one, veeeeeerrrrry slowly, these are being removed….

[wayfarer]

Mike wrote:

Wayfarer stated it best on 11 Nov, “…anonymity is the spiritual foundation of AA — there are very good reasons behind keeping your program very personal.”

To comment on Ray’s posting, you need to know that my beliefs are filtered through the program of “AA”. Iam an Alcoholic first before anything else. Even my membership in the LDS church.

The “AA” program teaches me that Will Power (ALONE) has no place in my program of recovery. The older members told me the following: Don’t drink & work an (AA) Program on a daily basis.

As a result, in the beginning especially, we go to alot of meetings & talk to alot of people that have had similar experiences. Overtime, we realize that we are not unique or special. Others have have gone through this recovery process too & their lifes are better for it.

What I’m trying to say is: Repentance is very similar. It’s a process. Not a moment of contrition, then eat the bread & drink the water, go home & start.

sure does, mike.

steps 1-9 are progessive and developmental. after 20 years, the process has to land on steps 10-12, and some key points:

– Continual personal inventory and when wrong promptly addressing it

– Prayer and meditation to improve my conscious contact with the spirit, however that may be defined for me.

– Praying only for knowledge of the Way and the power to follow it

– Maintaining an ongoing spiritual awakening

– Practicing these principles in all affairs

Mike, I found in time that personal spirituality is found within, as i am sure you have as well. For me, this means that even the program is just another organization, and the spirit has led me to a point where the principles could be found anywhere. you no doubt have heard the maxim, “Take what you need, and leave the rest.” the idea is, you go to meetings, and of all the wacky stories you hear, there are always nuggets that are so useful.

i think the principle of “take what you need and leave the rest” applies so well to the NOM middle way. as i go to church with my DW, seven of the eleven elements of a sacrament meeting will uplift me and bring me closer to the spirit regardless of what is said in the other four. (the eleven elements: prelude, postlude, 3 hymns, musical number, sacrament, 2 prayers, welcome/announcements, and talks.) that’s just the minimum, and i think spiritual discernment can guide the rest. as a matter of necessity, i need to focus on the positive, and not let the narrow mindset of some of the doctrines and people get me down.

may you find joy in the journey.

[wayfarer]

Roy wrote:

It is somewhat more difficult to postulate that JS received the first vision as a vision and not a visitation or that JS and all the witnesses to the BOM saw it through visionary methods/spiritual eyes rather than actually handling physical plates. It would certainly blur the line between the church being 100% true or the worst demonic falsehood (I forget the exact wording but this idea has been repeated recently in the last GC) and it would seem that the standard practice in church leadership at the moment is to reinforce that dichotomy…

Not that this leap is impossible, but it does require a paradigm change and it is impossible to tell how many individuals would fall into the proverbial chasm rather than make a safe landing on the other side. Perhaps this is why the Church seems to be doubling down on the all or nothing rhetoric.

You are correct — it isn’t easy, and i think the doubling down has a lot to do with painting themselves in a corner, doctrinally on this. Respecting the first vision, JS essentially says he ‘blacked out’ when the adversary was trying to prevent the first vision. with the changing first vision story, however one wants to make of that, the first vision is an unwitnessed event, and well could have been completely in JS’s mind and heart (however you want to accept that).

The plates are different, owing to the 8+3 witnesses. I accept that the golden plates story is most likely a fabrication, but to me the spiritual value of the Book of Mormon is very significant and positive. Yes, this is absolutely a paradox, and in harmony with William James _Varieties of Religious Experience_. James distinguishes between existential judgment of religions, basically noting that all seem to have fantastic, literally insane origins, from the spiritual value judgment of the faith. No religion is proud of its origin, as it turns out, because when you get to the bottom of all, there are always elements of pious fraud.

The church cannot cover the truth forever, and in this next 12 months of high visibility as Romney may likely be the Republican candidate, the truth will be more and more out there. There is no graceful way for the church to admit the true history of the book of mormon. Yet, there is very little wiggle room left. Might there have been golden plates? The Book of Abraham, and the historical descriptions of the translation process pretty much show that the generation of the Book of Mormon did not require any plates to exist. given JS’s track-record with magical desception, who knows what happened? eleven people claimed to see plates, but they claimed to do so ‘with spiritual eyes’, whatever that means. None of the 8+3 were independent observers, they all may have been connected somehow to JS’s schemes, Although there are no outright denials to my knowledge, there are some who have pointed out the ‘spiritual nature’ of the witness. Again, the lack of their denials may well be that they themselves painted their own integrity in the corner on this.

I was on a mission 75-77, and was in the church office building on that fateful day in June 1978 when the ‘revelation’ was announced about blacks and the priesthood. Prior to the revelation, there were a lot of people digging in their heels on this topic. Maybe this is the same we’re seeing in GC about BoM historicity. It’s quite the braggadaccio, however, to say it’s either 100% true or a 100% fraud. It’s best to dismiss such false dichotomies.

[wayfarer]

Ilovechrist77 wrote:

I was taught when I grew up in the church that our prophets of the church, just like the ancient ones, can see the Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ. What bothers me now is that you don’t hear about any experiences the modern-day prophets have had like that. It seems like sharing those experiences stopped after Brigham Young or around the early days of our restored church. Why has that changed? These are the reasons I thought about. (1) Heavenly Father or his son Jesus don’t feel it’s necessary to appear to President Monson to reveal anything new., so those visions have stopped. (2) Those experiences are just “too sacred” anymore to talk about because the Lord forbade it. (3) Monson sees them but since there are no new teachings the forbids to talk about his visions. Finally (4), Thomas Monson doesn’t have strong enough faith to see them. What are your thoughts?

Consider the following verse from the Doctrine and Covenants:

Doctrine & Covenants 8:2-3 wrote:

Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

if this explicit definition of revelation, the same type of revelation moses received, is within one’s “mind and heart”, then in what way did Joseph Smith ‘see’ Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ? Ancient prophets received inspiration that they interpreted as revelation, and wrote down what they perceived. How should modern prophets be any different?

I would be careful with the mythology that says that the revelation of the face of god is in any way literally with seeing eyes. I think this mythology has been literalized in the church so as to provide a degree of certitude and legitimacy to the prophets. As well, prophets today are eulogized in life as being as close to perfect as one gets, and any faults are whitewashed away. Ancient prophets were not painted in these terms, and neither should we buy into such myths as being literally true. The mythology, legends, and whitewashing of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young inevitably lead to serious disenchantment when we find out real human facts about Joseph Smith and the way he ‘translated’ scriptures. your points 1-4 in your quote above all arise from the magical/mythical worldview of what a modern or ancient prophet really is.

The scriptures are clear that revelations and visions must be with ‘spiritual’ eyes, which goes back to the verse above — in one’s mind and heart. These things are ‘inspiration’, and even at best, inspiration is an imprecise endeavor.

Let me suggest that the modern prophets do see god moving in his power, as do you and I if we but look up. consider the following:

Doctrine & Covenants 88 wrote:

45 The earth rolls upon her wings, and the sun giveth his light by day, and the moon giveth her light by night, and the stars also give their light, as they roll upon their wings in their glory, in the midst of the power of God.

46 Unto what shall I liken these kingdoms, that ye may understand?

47 Behold, all these are kingdoms, and any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God moving in his majesty and power.

48 I say unto you, he hath seen him; nevertheless, he who came unto his own was not comprehended.

49 The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him.

50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.

literally, look up. Have you observed the stars, the sun, the moon? Have you observed the workings of nature? If you have observed any of these, then you have seen God moving in his majesty and power. The challenge is that one has to recognize what one is seeing, and set aside the myths and literalism that surrounds us in our spiritual infancy.

TSM is a man. Are all of his statements equally inspired? no. Was he inspired to push for Prop 8? Absolutely not, in my humble opinion. Yet, he is the guy that the church accepts as the prophet, and in that capacity, he has the keys necessary to lead the church — by definition, if nothing else. I think there’s more than that, but that’s my opinion.

[wayfarer]

SilentDawning wrote:

I’m fascinated with how you can find Church service rewarding. It was the lack of fulfillment associated with Church service that led me here for support. Then I read a lot of doubts and became associated with the gaping holes in the history, and then started questioning just about everything I’ve been told over the years, while still maintaining I’ve had spiritual experiences that LDS folks will call “testimony”.

Service, to me, is what i bring to it.

Today, I participated in a funeral of a friend in the church. She had severe reumatoid arthritis, and yet was a friend to many. she was in my choir for many years when she was able, and always gave me a very hard time. For her funeral, she insisted that I sing a solo — she knew I hated to get in front of people and perform solos, so it was her payback time. Her husband was sure she would be laughing ‘up there’ as she had me go embarrass myself. I sang a setting of ‘Jesus the very thought of thee’, and it went ok. The accompanist was also a friend, with whom i worked in an interfaith conference years ago. we were all edified by the experience in so many dimensions.

my favorite service in the church is cleaning the toilets in the chapel when our ward has responsibility to tidy up the chapel every third year. the duty to tidy up rotates through the families, i guess, due to cuts in budget. At any rate, the chore of cleaning the toilets is considered the worst. Yet for me, cleaning toilets has deep spiritual significance. you may think me a nut-case, but the idea of anonymously making life pleasant for another person is the most divine type of service. sure, it may not matter to most, but for me, when I get into a toilet and it’s clean, i appreciate someone who made that happen. as well, there is a scene in the movie gandhi where he has an argument with kasturbai-ji (his wife) about cleaning latrines — to her it was work for untouchables, but to him, there was no untouchability. And, cleaning toilets, in principle, is similar to what jesus did with the disciples in John 13. He washed the filth (excrement was common in streets of jerusalem in those days) off the feet of his disciples, what was then the lowest, most menial work for the lowest of slaves.

i think the hardest calling to accept was when i was called to be ward mission leader. At the time, i was very much not aligned with some of the history of the church, nor did i feel that the church is the ‘one true church’ it is made out to be. As well, having been a seventy in the days when that meant permanent missionary calling, i hated the work. Yet, i did it, because for some reason i felt good about the calling. In teaching people and supporting the missionaries, i found that i could give them a balanced perspective of the church and I focused on the more important principles: eternity life is here and now, grace and works go hand in hand, how we serve one another brings heaven into the present. and, during my term as WML my daughter was called on a mission, and we were able to relate, week by week, our shared views on the difficulties of the work, and how we make the best of the moment.

i am not one to put stock in anything supernatural, but i do believe we can make purpose out of our situations. Some may say, ‘everything happens for a reason’ — my take is that we can often find reason within almost anything that happens. So, in the case of service, it’s to me what i put into it. I’m fortunate now that my travel has put me in the position that I have no formal calling — i really only go to church about once a month or so. but to serve doesn’t require a calling and maybe it’s better to serve without one. it all depends.

cheers!

[wayfarer]

doug wrote:

Welcome.

Wow. It sounds as if you’ve had a lot of interesting experiences, some of which I envy. I have found the Tao Te Ching, along with other “wisdom literature”, to be a great help to me, currently much more so than any other ‘scripture’ I have access to. I’d love to go closer to the source, mostly in order to satisfy curiosity, but I’m unwilling to make the sacrifices to do that. I’ll have to content myself with reading about the experiences of people such as yourself.

You must have something going for you in order for your wife to have put up with all of that.

the latter is a very good point. my wife has been clinically depressed in three rather significant episodes in our 33 years together. Yet today, we have as close of a relationship as we ever have had.

Her depression periods typically coincided with my periods of greatest challenge, but not quite in the order one would expect. Once the storytale nature of our mormon existence wasn’t quite working, we BOTH had independent reactions to it — she became depressed, and when i didn’t find a lot of solace in the church, i allowed my thinking to stray as well.

– the first episode was the post-partum depression coupled with my alcoholism stage,

– the second episode was the years-from-hell teen kids period coupled with my church research discoveries during the september six stage,

– and the third episode was very recent: menopause/empty nest coupled with my change in responsibilities to an insane travel schedule.

During each of the first two episodes, my wife, a very faithful TBM, could not accept the idea that she may need medication to help her deal with the chemical changes and challenges she was going through. She got through by becoming more faithful, more rigid, and more ritualistic in her practice, in order to get to the point that she could handle life on life’s terms. I checked out, i guess, and that certainly isn’t the right path at all.

In the third case, menopause and my travels, she came to the realization that medication might actually be necessary, and has found a balance that works. Likewise, since my travel was necessary, and not a case of me checking out, and I think it ultimately did us some good — helped her get more independent, helped me appreciate her better. And, not going to church together, church wasn’t the answer to all our questions any longer (it never really was, but for a TBM, she wasn’t there yet).

I have come back to the US for a little while, and because of all my travel miles, she’s been hopping all over the place, having a great time. She went to visit a daughter, SIL, and granddaughter in central america a week ago, and I realized in the airport sending her off, how important she was in my life. This was a bit of I don’t know what to call it. sappy I guess.

She doesn’t like it when I express my distaste for the church’s political positions and the narrowmindedness of some of its members, but at least we’re communicating and unified.

I don’t have any clue why I’m saying all this — just what i feel right now.

[wayfarer]

Mike wrote:

I believe that alot of us, in the church, have made similar choices, feel the same emotions & if we are lucky (or blessed), find recovery.

Do you use Alcoholics Anonymous (AA)? I have & believe it saved my life. It was in AA that I learned the difference between being Spiritual & being Religious.

I think very few people can experience both.

After a few years, I went back to see my Bishop & explained where I’ve been. I discovered how little he knew about recovery & the AA program.

At the end of our talk, he started to talk about some of the members. As I was leaving I wondered what he was going to say about me. That is one of the reasons that I am reluctant to talk about my experiences with members of the church.

yes, i had 22 years of sobriety, at least 12 of which were actively part of the program. I found, without equivocation, that it is NOT a good idea to talk about AA experience with church members or leaders. Unless someone is in AA, it’s very unlikely they can grasp what it is all about. It’s also why anonymity is the spiritual foundation of AA — there are very good reasons behind keeping your program very personal.

AA itself, however, has it’s own dogma and ‘fundamentalism’ of sorts. The reason I no longer attend AA is twofold: 1) it outlived its usefulness for me some time ago, as my spiritual program deepened. 2) in time i discovered that the challenges I had with alcohol were due to a type of guilt caused by magical thinking in the church. Today, neither alcohol, nor religious guilt has any sway on me, and I have found freedom in living without such boundaries. Most AAs will think that is delusional thinking, and I would agree with them, for most people it is. Hence, if you have found peace and sobriety in your program, keep working it, because it works.

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