[West]

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I’ll only say that a belief in polygamy, whether in the past or in the future, on earth or in heaven, is not required to have a testimony, be a faithful member of the church, follow Christ, have the Spirit, or go to heaven.

Agreed.

[West]

That’s a really excellent way to approach it, Ray. I’ll have to try it for myself. I know that I would have loved it if someone had expressed even a tiny comment of doubt during SS or RS after my FC, so I could know that I wasn’t alone in a room full of TBMs. I suppose if I want that culture of supporting those with doubts instead of shutting them down or shutting them out, it’s got to start somewhere.

[West]

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But again, I’m sure people that feel otherwise may be too timid to speak up in that environment, much like asking questions in SS… you have the feeling that questions will be met with accusations not discussion, so you keep your thoughts to yourself.

Yeah, from my experience, as soon as someone brings up any doubt or asks any hard-hitting questions that might be interpreted as doubt, most of the time it seems the teacher will give a quick half-answer, and then the rest of the class or discussion is spent on people bearing testimonies — instead of a logical, fact-based discussion, it turns to using emotion to drown out doubt. Not that emotions aren’t a viable and very necessary human experience to have, of course. Just draining. And many people don’t have the interest or the energy to deal with that, unfortunately.

[West]

Old-Timer wrote:

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Hardly a spring chicken.

A summer swan?

:thumbup:

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I wish I could know how the language and content of the initiatory/endowment are striking the huge numbers of young, unmarried women going through pre-mission these days.

I’m going to be one of them very shortly, so we’ll have to see. (:

I honestly don’t know what to expect (although I’m carefully researching it), but I have an OK idea how I’ll take it. It bothers me, as inequality always does, but mainly for the sake of others who take it more literal rather than as symbolic or as just part of tradition and another interesting experience to have in life.

I honestly didn’t know about the whole temple and celestial kingdom and polygamy issue until coming here. Polygamy has always unsettled me for various reasons, and it was a bit of a shock to find out how deeply ingrained in church beliefs it is. I’m glad for the resources and discussions here, though; and that’s all I’ve got to add to this particular discussion. (:

[West]

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I know from experience in my home life that when I try to repent, often my wife won’t let me! Not that she prevents it, but she doesn’t believe I’ve really changed. This discourages me from changing, or taking that next teenager step.

That’s a really great thought, SD. We have to encourage the change we do see, no matter how small it starts off, so that the door for more change continues to open. The Church is just a work in progress like everything else in this life.

This thread offers some really great perspective. So many of us on the fringes found ourselves out here due in some part to historicity issues, so it’s nice to look and see from another angle or two how the Church’s history compares in the larger scheme of things. Not to downplay anyone’s individual negative or positive experiences within the Church, of course.

[West]

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It’s interesting to me how our metaphors typically include nature to convey deep meaning (oceans, mountains, light, seeds, tempests, etc.)

Perhaps a bit if irony that we gather indoors for three hours on a Sunday to discuss the outdoors so much.

I’ve never really thought of that before, but it’s very true, at least in my experience. My favorite metaphors, the ones that I remember, relate to nature, and I heard them used in church all through growing up. Perhaps we relate to nature better because it’s not man-made, and therefore as close to a physical manifestation of God’s power as we can get without actually seeing God or some sort of miracle.

Or maybe it’s just built within us to find nature really cool and relatable.

[West]

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“A mature person is one who does not think only in absolutes, who is able to be objective even when deeply stirred emotionally, who has learned that there is both good and bad in all people and in all things, and who walks humbly and deals charitably with the circumstances of life, knowing that in this world no one is all knowing and therefore all of us need both love and charity.”

-Eleanor Roosevelt, It Seems to Me: Selected Letters

[West]

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I struggle with living in such a conservative area at times. I know that people’s beliefs and perspectives are probably much more diverse than I give them credit for, but it seems the vocal majority is very black and white, and just takes it for granted that everyone else around here is as well.

I definitely emphasize there. The old folks in my family are incredibly conservative and without fail will launch into vehement declarations about how evil certain politicians are with the complete assumption that the people they are talking to fully agree. It’s been a struggle in patience on my part, since several times, I’ve known the opposing political standing of the other people. Awkward, to say the least.

Like you, there are many teachings in the Church that I flat out do not believe in or accept. But there has been so much good that has come from the church into my family, that I have been able to find a place of peace. I hope you are able to do the same. Thanks for introducing yourself and sharing your story, and here’s a formal welcome to the forum, even though you’ve been around for a bit.

[West]

Mike wrote:

Heber wrote:

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The example I would use is from my mission when I bought and ate coffee cake for breakfast. The AP visited our apartment, saw the box of “Coffee Cakes” and reprimanded me for breaking the Word of Wisdom. When I explained it is just the name, no coffee in it, he still said, “Well, the appearance of evil, Elder.”

What would he have done with Root Beer? You probably would of been home early.

I know silly & sarcastic.

There’s always the root beer in the brown glass bottles. (:

[West]

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I hope that is not too far out there for this site.

Sounds like you’re doing just like the rest of us have and are — thinking things through and determining for yourself what beliefs you can find peace in.

[West]

Yes, that makes sense. I had to come up with my own definitions for each of those beliefs, as well. For me, it’s still a process that’s happening, but my personality is the type that adapts pretty easily to big changes, so it’s not like having a tiger in the room. In that sense, I don’t have much advice except to do what you think is best for you. The forum is here for you, though.

[West]

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Congrats. Do you know where you’re going yet?

My papers are still on their way. We ran into some snags that come with having a new stake presidency and officials. But hopefully very soon now.

[West]

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Somewhere in my upbringing I developed an expectation my faith made me worthy to have help whenever I needed it most.

This seems to be such a common occurrence, and not just in the LDS church and culture, but inherently to organized religions. I and some people I know and have talked religion with have expressed that we internalized somewhere along the line that the bad things that happened to us was because we were unworthy somehow, like divine help was a switch that was flipped on and off dependent on our worthiness.

For many people in my family, it’s worked out that way in relation to living the law of tithing, and I know that’s where my expectation developed. It’s difficult not to blame myself and my perceived worthiness even now when bad things happen to me. But I’ve been teaching myself more and more that these things must happen, and deep down, I am grateful for a God who does not attempt to be a “helicopter parent.” Sometimes, in the hardest times, I wish He was. And then I come out the other end of a dark moment, and I have learned how to overcome.

Another quote for this thread, this one from Quentin L. Cook and “The Songs They Could Not Sing.”

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There are many kinds of challenges. Some give us necessary experiences. Adverse results in this mortal life are not evidence of lack of faith or of an imperfection in our Father in Heaven’s overall plan. The refiner’s fire is real, and qualities of character and righteousness that are forged in the furnace of affliction perfect and purify us and prepare us to meet God.

[West]

Concerning the lighthouse metaphor — I really love the thought that all boats are different, all maps may not be correct, and all paths may not be safe even though they are going in the right direction. Ever since my FC, I’ve strongly held the belief that there are many paths but only one direction. And I’ve always thought of it as climbing a mountain in an attempt to meet the summit. There will be the well-trodden paths that those before us have created to provide a relatively safe and clear way for those who follow. Many of these paths have to be maintained to keep them safe. However, there will always be some of us who start at the bottom of the mountain where we cannot see the path, and we have to make our own way. Sometimes, we reach parts of the mountain where we do not have the skills to continue, or we attempt to create a path through dangerous territory and fail. But those who try to make it to the top are still attempting to go in the right direction. And there are certainly others who have no interest in climbing the mountain at all.

Concerning the walk in nature versus attending church — shortly before my FC, I determined that I was going to take one weekend a month off to go to a national park (there are many where I live) with some of my close friends for the sole purpose of enjoying nature and each other’s company before I left on my health mission. The trips required me to miss attending church. However, each time I went on the trip, my mind would trigger a memorized line from my patriarchal blessing, which basically told me to enjoy the glorious beauty of nature, for it is God’s gift, and it would bring me closer to Him. And it did. It was the first time I heard one of my now closest friends refer to his belief God, when we stood at the edge of a cliff, looking out over a landscape that was so breathtaking that there are no words to describe it.

The same friend has now become one of my very few outlets (total count: two) for pleasant, honest religious discourse outside of this forum. The moment on that cliff opened up the opportunity for us to share our beliefs and theories with each other very openly, and it has help me greatly with relieving stress from my FC and helping me rebuild my foundation of beliefs. Because of it, I was able to get over the anger and depression phases of my FC very quickly — it’s only been a few months since my FC, but I already feel more at peace with my beliefs than for many years prior, even though I am still rebuilding.

For me, going to church every single Sunday for three hours without fail was not the path I needed to take. However, completely dropping my church attendance has also not been the right path for me. Back to the mountain analogy, it seems like I’m more the person who keeps the path within view and continues laboring towards the summit, but I need to stray off to see what else the landscape has to offer.

[West]

I really like that thought, SD, thanks for sharing. And thanks for this thread and the responses. I plan to take it all with me into the mission field in a few months; we’ll see how it goes.

[Author]

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