[West]

It’s called “The Paper Magician.” I’ll state right now that I very much disliked the romance; didn’t feel like it was built up well enough, and it felt like it was forced to fit the book into the typical fantasy trends going strong currently. Sort of read like a modern YA, really, although I believe I’m biased, because the last few recreational books I read were really terrible YA fantasy novels. But the magic system is intriguing, although I’ve seen elements of it before in other books.

The bit I came across that seemed really out of left field for me but was exactly what I wanted (paraphrased a bit):

Quote:

“I think life would be much…simpler…if a man could believe in one solid thing,” he answered, still not looking at her. “Bits and pieces here and there do no good for a man’s soul. Thinking all of it is right or all of it is wrong does no good, either. Just as a magician cannot work all materials. He must choose one. But how does he know? How do these people believe in this faith, but not the others? Yet they are happy.”

[…]”You just have to learn, I suppose,” she said. “Explore until you know which one’s right for you.”

[…]”Do you believe in one thing, Ceony?”

[…]She considered the question. “I’ve never given it a great deal of thought. I suppose I don’t. I think I understand what you mean, about there being good in all faiths. In all gods, in all beliefs. When I think about it…I guess I’ve just taken what bits and pieces I felt were right for me and made my own faith with them. Faith is a very personal thing, really. Just because you don’t meet with a group of people once a week who believe everything exactly the way you do doesn’t mean you don’t believe in something.”

Weird and interesting things you can find in recreational reading.

[West]

Quote:

I respectfully disagree. The amount of individuals in your age group who feel the same way is staggering. The Church has no idea just how broad the disinterest is. They are still trying to stop the dam from leaking in the older groups. I have two daughters in your age bracket, both raised in very strong traditional LDS homes, both of them are bored to tears. The love the idea of a Divine being guiding them, they love have a spirituality – they find they don’t get that at church.

That’s really interesting, and I can definitely see that now that you’ve pointed it out.

willb1993, I’ve felt much of the same. I do agree with the suggestions to test out the university wards, though. Sometimes being far away from your home ward and area can do good. Maybe you’ll find a community that you can feel like a part of, or maybe not. Either way, like mom3 said, this is your personal journey to make but one that many others are making as well. My only advice would be along the lines of the “How to Stay in the church” help article on the main site:

Quote:

“Fix yourself, and make peace with your faith tradition before you ever consider abandoning it for something else.”

Whatever decisions you make, make them in peace, not in resentment. Otherwise, we’re here for you when and if you need us.

[West]

That would be a very awesome heaven. I could definitely get behind that.

On another note sort of pertaining to an update, I still have lots of highs and lows, but not nearly as bad as before. It’s not really affecting my appetite anymore, at any rate. It helped that over the weekend I had another little “coincidence” that helped out. I had time to read a fun little fantasy book I randomly selected off of Amazon for a quick, mindless read, because it was one of the free book offers part of Amazon Prime for August, and the premise sounded like something I generally enjoyed (weird magical systems). The book on a whole isn’t all that great, and really the only reason I kept reading was the premise was just interesting enough to me that I figured I might as well finish it. However, about two-thirds through, there was a full page and a half of the two main characters talking about faith while in the middle of a church while in a memory living in a guy’s heart. They talked about looking for a religion that was “right” for you; about how faith was a very personal thing, and that you pick and choose beliefs to make faith your own. The author, weirdly enough, is from Salt Lake City, which I learned after finishing it.

It was nice, actually to read something like that in one of the places I would definitely least expect it. It wasn’t the big, hopeful sign I’ve been half-hoping for, as I’m sure many do, but combined with all the other coincidences going on my life both before and post-FC, it’s been nice. I’m still not certain of the majority of beliefs in the LDS Church or even in Christianity in general, but like you guys have recommended, I’ve determined what I -do- still believe in. It’s not a lot. But I feel 100% better about them than any other belief I can remember, and that’s nice.

Also, I went to my friend’s mission farewell on Sunday, and while I didn’t really pay attention and instead read the book I mentioned above, since I’m still coming to terms with the FC, I’m learning to respect other people’s beliefs and try to find the good.

Update over. Thanks, everyone!

[West]

In my old university wards, they started “enforcing” (as well as they could, anyway) the boundary lines, as in if you lived in this area, you went to this ward, and no ward hopping if you don’t like it. They said they didn’t like how the young single adults were “ward shopping” for the “best ward”. I understood the reasons behind it, as in it was difficult knowing who was in what ward for rolls, locking down people for callings, and figuring out who to assign for visiting and home teaching. But I always thought it was an interesting term. And I always remembered how uncomfortable and lonely I was in my home ward growing up, how much I loved being in my friends’ ward instead. It makes for a better experience spiritually and mentally when you are surrounded by a positive, encouraging environment.

There’s definitely a “look the other way” type of mentality when people at church see something uncomfortable. A friend of mine linked this on Facebook before I saw it here, and I went through and read all the comments and just felt sick. My family and I have been the subjects of minor bullying in our home ward, such as an individual scathingly and pointedly questioning the parenting techniques of some of my family members (because of our political views and some common family problems that came to light…I mean, seriously?), but it’s been from only a few people (mostly middle-age women or young women, although I have heard instances where men have said cruel things about other men and their wives). On the whole, I count the home ward as one of the good ones, though, which is sad in that it very strongly exists even there. I’m sure it’s only gotten worse in the younger circles. I just don’t see it since I attend a single’s ward now with its own interesting culture.

[West]

@Orson

Thank you! The time thing is what I have always had problems with — I am not a patient person, and I stress myself out when I can’t see the clear picture and end goal. But it’s working out.

Quote:

…you will find some of the things that you need to start building a new house that will serve you much better than the old one ever could have.

Even through both my bad day yesterday and definitely during my good day today, I definitely noticed that I’m more spiritual and more calm and more patient than I have been in many, many years, and today, the patience and calm helped other people who needed it. The new house is still not entirely functional, but the base foundation and the bits I’ve salvaged were the things that I’d lost beneath all the stuff in the old house. It looks like this new one will definitely be better.

@SunbeltRed

Hi SBRed! We are definitely alike in the respect that, without this place, we probably would have done something we would have regretted. And I definitely relate to the feeling that we have lost something very dear. I am glad you have found good people around you in real life to support you on your journey! Indeed, just having the people here has been such a blessing.

@DarkJedi

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She and the doctor are both from North America.

And, I cannot fully express the value of this site, either.

Hmm, they still may very well be doing the health mission system then. Thank you!

Side entry (sorry, I think a lot of my posts in this thread are going to be like mini journal entries, because I guess I want to make sure there’s something documented here for other people who might come here at the start of their own FC and need it) — I took the “trade up advice” and made it my own; I told my friend I wanted to go “on an adventure or something” tonight, and she recognized that I was restless and invited me to try out her martial arts class with her this evening. By far the best choice was saying yes. I love the feeling of working out but rarely get the chance or motivation to do so, and the martial arts class was SO positive. It is a small class, and everyone in that class plus the teacher is always complimenting and encouraging one another. Everyone is at all different belt levels, but they all worked together and were all so positive and focused on building one another’s confidence and pushing one another just enough to improve but not too far so as to risk safety. I kept thinking that it was a lot like this group. And that if the church and, really, the rest of the world was like this, it would be such a wonderful place. Just like how I would imagine heaven.

Definitely not a coincidence that I ended up there.

[West]

I haven’t read the stages of faith thread yet, but I definitely will make it my next reading. Thank you for the recommendation!

I do have a very lovely home ward. It is filled with people who have their faults, as every church is, and a few (very few) have sadly allowed their sense of righteousness to blind their good hearts and say hurtful things to my family. However, on the whole, I have watched the people in our ward go through so, so many tragedies over the years and yet pull together in support and love every time. I know it’s not the same in all wards, and I know it’s not specific to Mormonism, but that community sense is definitely something I also respect about many people in the LDS Church. I hope I can be authentic, too, someday.

Quote:

My son serves in a South American mission and his mission does share a nurse and a doctor with other nearby missions (he’s in a large metro area). The nurse is a young woman, the doctor is a retired guy. Beyond that I’m not sure of many of the details, I do know the nurse has a little section of the newsletter where she addresses common health issues, and they do things like flu shots in addition to caring for missionaries who are ill or injured.

Do you know if the nurse lives in the area already, or if she is a full-time missionary? I know they have positions open where nurses already living in the mission area volunteer some of their time every week to help the missionaries, and I wonder if that is the case here. However, that sounds exactly what I’ve been told about those types of positions, and it sounds exactly what I would like to do. Thank you for sharing that!

Also, I don’t think I can accurately express how much I appreciate that this community exists.

[West]

@DarkJedi

I really love the building analogy. The demolished stage is certainly what it feels like. But there still seems to be some foundation there in my building, and I’m glad that I found this forum in time to recognize it before turning away and burning a bridge or two.

I’ve been reading on this forum about the temple recommend questions. I never realized until coming here how vague those questions were. It does, indeed, seem like they are intended to judge only individual worthiness according to the individual’s personal relationship with God. Not necessarily the individual’s personal relationship with the church. I have very mixed feelings and thoughts about what happens in the temple. But I recognize that it brings many people joy and peace. I’m glad I already went through a couple weeks ago to get my current temple recommend, though. I’m going to take some time to address the temple recommend questions for myself and see where that might lead me. Hopefully, I can see what they can help me rebuild.

I’ve always loved that theme of irony in the Star Wars universe. Those who thought they were on the side of good and right saw everything in Dark and Light, but most on the side of the Light were so focused on the split between Dark and Light that they couldn’t see the Dark until it overtook them. In the end, it was those who were conflicted, who weren’t the ideal of either side, that helped return the balance. I can’t imagine being in the grey is bad.

@nibbler

You are so kind, my friend, and I greatly appreciate that.

I believe that in the past, and possibly now, the church offers what they call medical missions for women between the ages of, I think, 21 and 25, who have some sort of medical license. Proselyting is still a part of those missions, but it’s a small percentage of the time — think of those numbers you gave and then reverse them, and that’s about what it is; a couple hours a day doing whatever proselyting work is needed, and then the rest of it attending to medical needs. I believe, though, they may be phasing out those particular missions, but I think I will try anyway. My bishop is encouraging a normal proselyting mission, but I think this will be the time I learn to say no and choose what I believe is best for me, even though by nature (and culture not really related to the church), I have a hard time standing up for myself in the face of authority.

I do sincerely appreciate the viewpoints on how a mission would be difficult for someone post-FC. Because my FC is so new, I haven’t been able to think through it as much as I should. I definitely want to make sure that a mission is my choice, no matter what sort of mission I eventually end up doing. According to my belief in nothing is a coincidence, my FC happened now for a reason. I’ve just got to let time tell me what that reason is. Thank you!

Edit: Here is an old article about the health missions for the church; I don’t know if they still do them for young single women, but I’m finding out! https://www.lds.org/church/news/health-missionaries-called-to-serve-him?lang=eng

[West]

Well, I had a long drive home, and it seems to have done me some good. It gave me a lot of time to reflect. I’m certain now that I’m going to have many ups and downs for a while, and it’s just something I have to work through each time. Slow and slow.

@nibbler

Quote:

If you feel like you need that experience that’s your choice. If it’s your choice how could it be dumb?

Thank you for that. I know I’m still at that stage where I worry about how other people view my religious-ness. I didn’t realize that’s what it was until I read through the “How to stay in the church” article, but now I think I recognize it. Still, I needed that viewpoint. Thank you.

Quote:

You touched on the conclusion that I struggled to arrive at, that there are people out there that do need the LDS church as their true church. It took a while for me to see that.

As a convert that served a mission I felt that “the church isn’t for everyone… right now.” In my more orthodox days as a missionary that translated to an utmost respect of people’s decisions. No meant no and I was okay with that, people would find the church on the lord’s timetable. Post faith crisis that became “the church isn’t for everyone,” which translated to an utmost respect of people’s decisions. No meant no and I was okay with that, people would find god on their own terms. Subtle variation I guess. What took time was the realization that there were people out there that truly need the church. That’s something I can get behind.

For some reason, that conclusion just seems…right. Both logically and emotionally. There’s no warm fuzzy feeling. Just a sense of peace, almost. I hope that means it’s right, because it’s definitely something I can also get behind.

Quote:

The thing about a mission, and I’m going to shoot straight, your peers and leaders likely aren’t going to agree with an unorthodox worldview. Your peers and leaders will be of the mindset that every person on earth must accept the gospel. Clashing with a one size fits all approach will at times cause strife. Rather than bring up specific examples I’ll leave it at this…

Before you leave on a mission determine your own definition of what a successful mission means to you and don’t let anyone else redefine success for you (or better yet don’t worry about whether you are having a successful or unsuccessful mission at all). You’ll drive yourself nuts trying to live up to someone else’s expectations. If you feel like you are falling short of attaining success, however you end up defining it, do not allow guilt to take over. Look past the guilt to find the success that was hidden from your original perspective.

I imagine a mission would be all the more difficult for someone post faith crisis. Remember that the church isn’t the only way to serve people, the peace corps for instance. Don’t take this as an attempt to talk you out of serving a mission, the decision is yours.

I am worried a bit about the potential strife. I can’t clearly say that I believe Joseph Smith to be what the church portrays him as. Same as the BofM. However, after the long drive home, I think I believe at least that the BofM does have its value. It has its truths. And within it, there are many people who can find peace. I have balked over the past few days at thinking of having to read it again. But after reading some other forum posts about the topic, I’ve realized that I’m hesitant because I’m still trying to come to terms with being taught my whole life that it was a perfect word of God when logic and reason tells me it likely isn’t what the church says it is. However, I have found value in so many fictional, wonderful non-church books.

I might yet change my mind about going on a mission, but as for now, I feel like I can at least confidently say to investigators and my peers that I do believe the BofM can bring peace and joy into many people’s lives if they are only willing to give it a chance. I hope that is enough to avoid serious clashes within such a black-and-white culture that I would be immersing myself into with going on a church mission. I think a big part of how well I serve will be dependent on finding for myself that definition of success you suggest. It will definitely not be an easy thing for a post-faith unorthodox Mormon. But no one ever said it would be easy even for an orthodox one. And maybe what the church and the world needs is more people with different viewpoints.

I’m going to be saying thank you a lot, but yeah, thank you. I’ve considered the Peace Corps or other similar non-church humanitarian long-time service. I think I will keep it still open as an option for as long as I can. I appreciate your suggestion. Truly, I do not see it as an attempt to talk me out of a mission.

Quote:

You mention coincidence. You probably already have but if not, don’t forget to extend that to your faith crisis. It’s no coincidence that you had a faith crisis, it was meant for your spiritual progression. It sounds like you’ve already found a way to use your faith crisis to move forward.

I do continue to believe, even after such a rough day as today, that coincidences are just signs of a higher power working to pull things together towards a larger plan. Yes, I do believe that this faith crisis was no coincidence. As I said in a previous post, I had been planning on a mission for several years now while I completed school. I kept setting dates to complete my papers numerous times. In that time, a lot of small but firm coincidences came up that told me choosing to go on a mission was the right choice. But it was only now, barely a week or so after meeting with my bishop and confirming for sure a date, which I hadn’t done before, that this crisis came up. Only this weekend, a day or two before my crisis, my mother had talked with me and we had resolved all my lingering doubts.

I’m not sure quite what those coincidences mean yet. But since it happened now, when the mission plans were getting more “real” than ever, I feel like yes, it was for my spiritual benefit. I can’t help wondering that, if I should still decide to go, my crisis is meant to help someone else. I don’t know if that’s just wishful thinking. And maybe in a few days or a few weeks it will change. But for now it seems right.

@Heber13

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My first advice is for you to take a deep breath and realize you’re on a journey, and pace yourself, go slow, and avoid rash all or nothing thoughts or choices.

Truth is… you can have all your feelings, and all your feelings are valid…and you can still choose to be LDS and serve a mission if you want to. In fact, you may be a great missionary with a great perspective others may need to hear. Or if not a mission, an active member who reaches out to others with similar doubts and fears.

When you grow wiser, you start to see truth from many perspectives, and all may be right and good. You just have to be open to it. Like the prism that has one source of light or truth, but we might see the light at different times or different angles that show different colors…no one is the right one…they are just what they are. And God wants us to all learn the beauty of all the colors…not a black and white world.

I think I need to get that branded into a bracelet so I can take it and see it everywhere I go as a reminder — Deep breath. You’re on a journey.

Having read the forums extensively before creating an account and posting, I couldn’t get over how accepting and supportive this community is. And even now I almost can’t believe it. Like I said above, I think my crisis might in fact be what would make me a greater missionary by far than if I had left a year or two ago as previously planned. In all honesty, I haven’t been the most to-the-book Mormon for many years now. But so far during this crisis, I have found myself and God more thoroughly than almost any other time in my life.

Thank you so much for the prism analogy. It is beautiful, and it is a truth that I find peace in. I don’t know why I didn’t see before how black and white much of the LDS culture is sometimes, especially when it teaches that no one knows how God will judge, and that He will be fair to each person according to the contents of their heart. Thank you.

@Roy

Thank you for the link! I found it previously, but I didn’t get to reading it. I love this woman. I wish I had had the awareness to try to meet her while she was still alive. Her experiences and her love is something that I’ve found I relate to more than any other church leader I’ve yet found.

@Roy and @Nibbler

The “slow down” and “don’t dump” advice has kept me from saying anything about my crisis to the people I love. I have tried, and I think succeeded, in maintaining the appearance that nothing is wrong or has changed. It’s been difficult, but at the same time, it’s been easy. Because of my father’s medical procedure, I’ve watched such a wonderful outpouring of love and help from members of our ward. The LDS Church is indeed the true church for these people. I do not ever want to be responsible for hurting them or making them doubt because of my own doubts. This journey is mine.

I will definitely keep this advice in mind. So far, it’s been difficult. But slowly, I have been building up the things I believe and the truths I know, and that has been helping.

@SilentDawning

I would definitely suggest having a non-church humanitarian mission as an option for your son if he doesn’t feel that a proselyting mission is what’s best for him. It is always good to have options, and I would definitely see it as “trading up.”

@DarkJedi

Quote:

I don’t have a ton of time right now, but I wanted to say welcome and offer my fairly standard advice, some of which has already been covered:

Take it slow, don’t dump all at once (which really has two meanings – don’t just dump your beliefs wholesale and don’t dump it all on your friends/family/leaders), and focus on what you do believe.

Thank you. (And as a fairly involved Star Wars fan, I probably should admit that one thought that’s helped me through this a lot over the past few days is “Only Sith deal in absolutes” — that is to say, this world is all shades of colors, and seeing things black and white can be harmful; not implying the church is like the Sith, of course).

It’s been a struggle not to dump all my beliefs. Part of it is because I’ve held onto them for my entire life, and I don’t think I can. Part of it is because I don’t know what else to do without them. And part of it is because when I clear my head and sit down and think, I can see that there is still much good in them that I can find and apply to my life. Thank you for the advice. It’s standard for a very good reason.

[West]

Thank you, everyone, so very much for your supportive and kind replies. I intend to reply to everything, and in fact already did, but my browser did some stuff and lost my reply, so I will type it up again shortly. And then everyone shall see that I am, by nature, a very long-winded individual.

But first…I just need a moment, I guess, to give a voice to the feelings I’ve been going through over the past 24 hours. An outlet, if you will. I have broken down in tears now both before and after work and nearly several times during the day. After work, I sat alone in the empty top lot of a public parking garage overlooking the open house parking for the local temple. These areas around the temple have been filled daily with cars and with people. I didn’t come to the lot, though, with the intent of watching them or viewing the temple, which is a daily landmark I pass on my way to work. I instead simply wanted to sit and read from the forums alone for several minutes before returning home to my wonderful, loving, devoutly Mormon family.

But then I looked up and saw the many people in dresses and white shirts and ties walking along the sidewalks towards and from the open house. They were families. Singles. Friends. All, it seems on the surface, so certain and so sure in their beliefs. In the background was the temple, rising higher than any other building around it. It reminded me of when I had attended the open house for the first time. I’d felt something there in the Celestial Room that I thought to be the Spirit. Or something related to the higher power that I still want to continue believing in. But overall, I’d felt almost empty, I suppose. Like I didn’t “get it” as well as other people. I had gone along to escort my parents, mostly. I have since gone twice after that. The second time, I’m not sure I felt anything. The third time was the time I mentioned previously, where I was just beginning my crisis of faith and so had the grief response of anger in my heart.

Watching all those happy people this evening reminded me of what seemed like a downward spiral of my feelings and spirituality. And I couldn’t help it. I cried. I doubted everything I thought I believed in. How could the kind and loving God I believe in allow so many people in this world, not just in the Mormon religion but everywhere, to be led down paths that don’t seem to make sense? That seemed to be based on half-truths and hidden truths and yet claim to be the only truths? How could he do so and only have one “true” church? How could I ever find the faith to believe in anything when I’ve had the faith I’ve lived with my entire life so shaken?

And then there was the fact that temples to me represented the eternities with the people I love. I kept thinking of the church teaching that families will be together forever after our earthly trials here are completed. And because I love my family almost more, it seems sometimes, than I love myself, I don’t know how to handle the thought that if other church doctrine was misguided or opinion only, what if that doctrine was untrue as well? What if all I had with my family was what I have here in this life? It doesn’t feel like that time alone could ever be enough.

Coincedentally, though, last night on a non-religious related call to a cousin I rarely talk to who called me, my cousin began talking about being together with our families in the afterlife. I wasn’t sure what to say besides, “That’s something so nice to believe in.”

She said, “It’s not something I believe in. It’s something I know.”

But how? How can anyone know? And at the very least, how can I find the strength again to believe that? I suppose, in the end, I am afraid of what lies beyond death. I’m afraid it’s nothing, and that the people who have gone on before me and who have yet to go on were only here for such a short perspective, only to cease existing as they were. I’m afraid, even, that there is after all something in the afterlife, but I will have made it after choosing the “wrong” path, and I will still be unable to be with the people I love.

How do you reconcile those feelings? How did you find something that can help you sleep at night, that can help you face each day without such a feeling of despair and feeling lost?

I know I’m trying to look for an easy answer when I know there isn’t one. I know this process is not going to be an easy one. I wish, so, so very much that it was. I want to have hope that the pain will be worth in the end. That as a result of his journey, I will end up a better person than I was before. The type of person I want and need to be.

But for now, it seems that point is so hopelessly far away. I wouldn’t say that sitting up there on that parking garage I felt alone. But I did feel empty. And lost. I didn’t feel like there was anywhere to turn for the comfort I so desperately wanted. I didn’t feel like I had any faith to pray to a God or at the very least a higher power I didn’t understand. I understand now, at least, why so many people leave the church with such anger.

I do not believe it was a coincidence that I felt like the parking garage overlooking the temple was the place I needed to sit tonight. I don’t feel it’s a coincidence that the temple is something I see every day before and after work. But I can’t comprehend or see what it is meant to lead me to.

I guess what I’m asking for is for help. I feel so lost. And if not for this forum, I would feel so very, very alone. What can I do?

I’m sorry for such a lengthy and depressing post. I have thought all day about the advice and the encouragement given here, and it has helped and continues to help. I just don’t know what to do with my thoughts right now. I tried writing them down into a private journal, but I just felt more confused. Do you have any reflections that might help from your initial post-crisis experiences?

[West]

Thank you so much, Terwillger. So far, I have found this forum and the website to be exactly what I was looking for. Reading the “How to stay in the church” article was especially what I needed, and I feel very comfortable at the present with my choice to both accept the historical truth of church history while remaining a member on my own terms. I still feel put-off, maybe a little anxious, especially for church meetings on Sunday, but at the same time I keep getting little moments of what feels like freedom and peace when I look at the beliefs I am choosing to keep and the ones that I am allowing myself to let go. I think, on the whole, my faith crisis is putting me on a path to be a better and more spiritual person.

I am glad that you found such joy on your mission. I have had some inactive and less active RMs tell me that it will be one of the hardest experiences of my life, but they feel like I won’t regret doing it and that they don’t regret doing it, either, even though they have changed. I am glad to find that you feel the same on that respect. It gives me a lot of hope and courage, and it definitely makes me feel better about my choice. I know that during the mission I will not try to challenge any devout orthodox member’s faith. Everyone has the right and the opportunity to choose to believe whatever they want (thanks to the person in another thread who suggested reading/listening to Uchtdorf’s October 2013 Saturday morning talk…yeah, I’ve been stalking a lot of the threads). But like you, I do feel the desire to serve others both temporally and by seeing if I can help them see if there is anything in my beliefs or the beliefs of the church that might help them. The LDS faith might be the “true” church for someone out there. And at the very least, I hope I get placed into a mission that focuses on building the community and participating in daily service rather than tracting, as it seems many now are.

Thank you so much again! I noticed in your other thread that you’re also a fellow Northern Utahn, so hello! I am so grateful that I found this place and that it exists for those of us who need it.

[Author]

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