[wornoutsneakers]

afterall wrote:

Wornoutsneakers, I do think many are careful who they trust their opinions to. I know a great many in my area, especially among the younger generation. There may very well be some right around you who sense your contentment with the way things are and don’t wish to upset you or upset themselves to discuss it with you. Also, even many in the older group may not speak it just so, but I can promise you the underlying resentment that is often there towards the men. Surely some sister leaders have muttered around you things such as , “The wheels of the priesthood turn slowly. Ask the RS president, she’s really the one who knows everything going on. The women do the majority of the work in the church.” I could go on and on with this particular theme. As a sister leader on ward and stake levels for many years, I knew the men did engage and work hard in their callings too. I have always felt if a woman is going to mutter these things under her breath or to other sisters, she might as well be speaking it to the priesthood. That is the honest thing to do.

But then that leads to…..where is the avenue really to address these issues on a churchwide level? Because the ward and stake experience as far as sister leaders are concerned will always be affected by the particular group of men in leadership at the same time until something changes a LOT.

From my experience in my area, there are many, probably the majority, who want more respect for the sister leaders. Many may not care or want it to go all the way to ordaining to priesthood, but they want to be respected and to have a voice that actually carries some weight, to address issues and governance on the ward and stake level.

Afterall, i am probably the most open book of anyone in my ward and have thru various callings and functions had the chance to get to know quite a few people in my stake. I really feel sorry for those that truly know me because i have been very open about my struggles and have shared my opinions on a variety of things. I am not someone that you would traditional think would “toe the line”…when i wanted to join staylds Brian J. gave me very solid advice about not to talk about the origins of my introduction to the faith and he deleted quite a bit from my introduction. I have even shared with others my postings on this site and related how in many ways staylds has helped me evolve.

Having said that, I really disagree with your assumption that most women feel this way. I guess thats the whole thing about the OW movement that bothers me. Based on the grass roots activites of a group of individuals…people are applying their experiences and assuming its the same for everyone. I also dont understand this thinking that men are treated better in the church or that women work harder unfairly or dont have a voice. From my personal association with certain people i have come to know that the Bishopric is the hardest working group in the church. Im currently a member of a Presidency in my ward and can say we dont really have that many responsibilities compared to them. And there are 350 active members in our ward. The women in my ward also have a voice and are in no way not respected.

Let me pose a scenario and im curious what type of response i will get…so lets consider a different group of individuals in the church. What about those that secretly support polygamy or want to reinstate it? So with same sex marriage being approved across the board in many states, the argument that i have heard before is that the legalization of same sex marriage may lead to the legalization of polygamy. What if a group wants to pursue that in our church? Why not completely reform the church and allow those type of sealings to be done in the temples? If we want to broaden the scope of who gets the priesthood and be inclusive of same sex community..why stop there? Does anyone have any opinions on this?

[wornoutsneakers]

I have refrained from replying on this thread, because to be honest i just dont feel like i know enough about either person to speak about it. That and i feel like i am minority on this issue.

But i have decided to voice a few opinions. What strikes me as very interesting is the assumption that most members of the church support both John and Kate and their beliefs. I feel more for John simply because, from what i have read and heard, he has had a crisis of faith of sorts. I can relate to that. However i probably wouldnt agree with his stances on the lgbt community. I dont agree either with Kate and the OW movement. Hawkgrrrl commented online on “wheatandtares” that Although many in the church agree with John and Kate’s pro-feminism and pro-gay rights stances….. I feel this is a complete assumption Hawkgrrrl. Where is the evidence to support that many do support this? What is the definition of many? 1%, 20%, or more? I dont recall ever being polled. I have talked about OW and other issues with many members at church and not one woman supports OW. I am perfectly fine with the “status quo”. It is one the main reasons why i like the church.

My opinion on why Kate and John are facing discipline is due to the tactics they have used or are using to get their opinions and agenda across. It sortof reminds me of the slogan…bad publicity is better than no publicty. Yes, like some others have stated…what else can you do when your shut out basically? My question is…could Kate possibly made more traction if she had shown more firm persistence and not taken to the streets in protest? How long have they been trying to pursue their individual issues? Could it be that maybe they wanted results too quickly? Just on OON, i dont agree with the tactics of the OW…i feel like it is putting unfair pressure on the church and in a negative light. I still believe revelation should come from the top down, not forced from the bottom up.

[wornoutsneakers]

SD, i have had many spiritual experiences. Some before i even joined the church. Most of my experiences come in the form of dreams. I will shared a few….

When i was a teenager i repeatedly use to dream about the tree of life from Lehi’s dream…but i didnt know it because i didnt find the church until i was in my 30’s. I cant say that i just “remembered” it somehow from reading other scripture because i had never went to church when i was young or read any scriptures. It was a very profound experience for me when i read the BOM for the first time and my “tree dream” seemed just like Lehi’s. I knew right then that the BOM was scripture.

Shortly after i joined the church there were some people from my past that tried to convince me to leave the church. And it wasnt just that they wanted me to leave the church, but they were very bad people. During this time of my life i had terrible nightmares. I honestly think i saw the gates of hell, or was close to it. All i could hear was the gnashing of teeth and close ups of tortured mouths screaming in agony…i could see everything in great detail. I would wake up with tears streaming down my face sobbing. I know deep down that i was being warned if i did what those people wanted me to do that i would suffer terribly for it. As soon as i stopped contact with them the dreams stopped.

Shortly after that time i was laid off from my job and wanted to move to another state to find work. Well things didnt work out and after several weeks of living with a friend and not finding anything…i decided to move back home to family. I didnt have enough money for a plane ticket so i bought a bus ticket. I was 1500 miles away from home standing in a bus depot. I was terrified. I had 300.00 cash on me and i was surrounded by beggars and strangers. To make matters worse, i had 4 transfers to catch across the country. I was told if i missed a transfer due to a late bus that i would have to spend the night in a bus depot in some strange town. I went into the bathroom and a said a silent tearful prayer asking God to help me get back home safely. I walked out in the main waiting area and found myself at the end of a very long line. Alas, it looked like i wouldnt make it on my bus and would end up sleeping somewhere in a bus depot. A short hispanic woman standing at the very front of my line (there was like 6 lines) turned around and stared at me. She came back and said “your a member of my church”. I said “what?”. She said “your a member of my church, the church of jesus christ of latter day saints, and im going to make sure you get home safely”. I almost started to cry again. My prayer had been answered. She grabbed my luggage and my hand and steered me to the front of the bus line. I told her i couldnt possibly cut in front of every one. She told me not to worry, that no one would say anything, and they didnt. Then she told me to get something to eat. I asked her later how she knew we belonged to the same church? She told me she saw my quad in my tote bag, which by the way was not visible to anyone. It took me about 36 hrs to travel from that depot to my hometown. And i never once worried. In fact every bus was 1 1/2 to 2 hrs late for each transfer, but would you believe every single bus waited for me to join them? I didnt miss one transfer and i made it home early…even though each bus was late…i never did figure that one out.

I have had many more experiences. When i am struggling in the church i have dreamed that i was barred from entering the temple…at these times the temple is surrounded by dark, black, turbulent waters. As i have worked towards making myself temple worthy the temple became brighter, surrounded by warm light, and i was allowed into the temple again.

One last experience.. and the best one of all….when i was contemplating joining the church and praying about it i had a really great dream. I dreamt i was in this house. But it was dark, and full of black water. A booming voice from behind me told me that it was my choice, my choice whether to be with him or without him. I knew at that very moment who was speaking. He told me the black water and filth represented a life without him. This brought feelings of fear and despair to me. Then he lifted me and placed me in another house. This house was full of light , it was warm and inviting, i walked into the kitchen and a woman was cooking, she was wearing an apron and turned around and her face lit up when she saw me. She ran to me and embraced me and felt loved. We hugged. Then the voice told me this home represented a life with him in it. I woke up with tears on my face and decided to join the church. Would you believe when i walked into the chapel for the very first time, that woman was sitting on bench in the chapel? She was assigned to be my visiting teacher and we are now best friends. She has on more than one occasion welcomed me into her home.

[wornoutsneakers]

intothelight,

just a random thought. if they are going on a mission (im sorry if you mentioned where i didnt catch it), i wonder how well they are going to do of bringing in former members into the ward, branch, etc, where they go. I hope im not straying too far from your thread, and i apologize, but it always amazes me how many people in our church only want to focus on converting people and not trying to reclaim members. And im not referring to you. Im saying, with their attitude, i bet they wont be very successful of getting inactives or less actives to come back. I see this type of behavior in my ward and it makes me cringe. Love, acceptance, charity, forgiveness…thats what we all need to possess.

[wornoutsneakers]

SilentDawning wrote:

I would also like to quote, again a great quote from Marcus Aurelius that bears on this OP:

Quote:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

I would like that framed on my wall.

Well said SD, i agree totally. I appreciate everyones input. My conscience has subsided for now and i can sleep better. Like DBMORMON said too….i feel pulled into this community of believers even if sometimes logic states otherwise…sometimes i think that is the whole test God has put before us, to believe even when there is the chance to not.

[wornoutsneakers]

nibbler wrote:

I can sympathize. I compare this period of my life with Jesus’ time in the wilderness.

Jesus’ period in the wilderness occurred some time after his baptism. My FC was after my baptism and after being truly dedicated to the church.

The spirit “drove” Jesus into the wilderness. I often felt driven towards a FC. Other gospels say that the spirit led him to the wilderness. As strange as it sounds I feel like my FC carried me to a better place… maybe the spirit wanted me to be in the wilderness to similarly learn important lessons.

The rub for me is that Jesus eventually left the wilderness and went back to Galilee:

Quote:

And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee

He started his mortal ministry after returning.

I may be reading far too much into the short narrative but I try to find my path by drawing similarities to Jesus’ time in the wilderness. I very much feel like I am in the wilderness but not in a physical sense. It took Jesus 40 days of fasting before he returned and he was perfect; that tells me that the journey will not be easy and it will not be quick. I have to commit to the long haul. What really concerns me is whether I’m 100% satisfied with being in the wilderness (it’s not a bad place) or will I make an attempt to return. Can I finally learn the lessons I was meant to learn in the wilderness and take those lessons back to my community to effect change, whatever the cost? I don’t know that I could ever do that, but even that is just another doubt to conquer.

From time to time I try to think of Jesus as someone that possibly saw through the orthodoxy of his time and tried to use it as a common language to take his people some place better. If he truly knows how to succor me he must have had to deal with similar doubts in similar circumstances and he must have found a way forward despite them. That’s the path I’m searching.

So I’d say take it slow. You don’t want to move through the wilderness so fast that you miss the best path forward. The wilderness has important lessons to teach us that can’t be rushed.

I want to thank you Nibbler for that awesome explanation. I think i have something new now to read and research so to speak. I have been struggling alot lately and have feared i was out the door. I already knew this about Jesus but never fully considered it lately. I have been in a very dense and dark wilderness of my own lately.

[wornoutsneakers]

Old-Timer wrote:

1) Go ahead and plan a temple wedding and abstain from sex for a month or so. Don’t worry about confession, since you will be able to say you are following the Law of Chastity when you have the temple recommend interview. Seriously, if investigators are having sex and get married to be able to be baptized, they aren’t “punished” in any way for it after baptism – and the only reason they can’t be married in the temple immediately is to give them time to understand the covenants they will make there.

Of the three choices this would be my pick. It makes everyone happy, including you and your soon to be groom. Dont worry about the past. The whole point of repenting is that you can move on with your life. If i focused on all the terrible things i did before i repented, i probably couldnt get out of bed in the morning. Life is too short. Like Ray said, set a temple date SOON, abstain for a month or two, get married, and move on. If you have too much guilt to do this then get married civilly. Dont worry about others think, since they wont be part of your marriage. Focus on what you two want and communicate about it.

[wornoutsneakers]

nibbler wrote:

Not to lead you further down the rabbit hole but if it’s all false (including the concept of god) then you don’t really have to worry about that either.

I wasnt saying that the whole concept of God is false, just what we, mormons, purport to be true. Like latter day prophets, that Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, 3 degrees of glory, the temple endowment, the priesthood, and everything else that follows. What if what we believe that is particular just to us…is false? :think: I cant think of where the verse of scripture is…but someone there is a reference to the fact that we are warned about false prophets. What if we are the group that everyone has been warned about? And what if we are somehow punished for perpetuating that by teaching it to our children or converting others to the church…especially after we have doubts about it?

I appreciate Rays comments that if it is false, God will appreciate that we tried our best, and it its all false it wont matter since there is no God and we tried our best.

What started me on this thread again recently was reading the essay on the BOM translation. So, i realized before i joined the church that there were reports J. Smith put his face in a hat to read some stones or some stuff. Im not an expert but i had a clue. Then when i read that essay i started thinking about all the lessons i had taught in Primary and the ones we are teaching now, the songs we read, the pictures we use that dont show that. Then i got to thinking about why would the church not reveal that openly? Why not address it? Why do we still teach about the plates? Then i thought maybe all of this is a bunch of baloney. What if there is a heaven, but maybe i wont be allowed in because i believed something false that doesnt even exist (i.e. the 3 degrees of glory…which btw i dont buy at all…i dont think God segregates Heaven. To me the that is like the “haves and the have nots”. I know for sure i wont qualify for the celestial kingdom and i REALLY know my family never would! So why shoot for it then. We may be dysfunctional but i want to be with them in the afterlife). Other things i have issues with are like the temple endowment…sometimes when i do it or look back on it…im like do these other people really believe in what they are doing? Are we for real?

[wornoutsneakers]

DarkJedi wrote:

The thought has crossed my mind (obviously influenced by Satan )

Thanks for the laugh. I needed it today. 😆

[wornoutsneakers]

mom3 wrote:

I love it, I hate it, I can’t imagine life without it.

Yes LDSness could very well be completely made up – but it won’t hurt me if it is. It gives too many gifts to be abandoned.

Mom3 i think you hit the nail on the head of why i continue to go to church. I love the spirit i feel there. The few times i have been able to go and sit in the chapel and sit and meditate have been very special to me. I can sense something i dont get anywhere else. Some of the hymns have that effect too. I never thought that attending church and being a member are alot like a holiday like Christmas. But they are. If its not true i am rec’ing some great benefits from it.

[wornoutsneakers]

Just fyi im a single woman and i rec’d my endowment over a year ago and im in my late 30’s. My bishop at the time was really curious why i wanted to pursue it. I had converted to the church about 2 years before that. I had significant personal reasons and i needed to vindicate something i had overcomed in my life. It sortof got under my skin why i had to excuse my desire at the time. Now that i’m an endowed sister i sortof wistfully wish i had taken more time to carefully consider it. But i will say in my ward the leadership is very open to letting young unmarried women receive their endowment if they wish.

[wornoutsneakers]

Old-Timer wrote:

Forgive – and don’t talk about it anymore with them. If they bring it up, simply tell them you are working things out and thank them for their concern.

They don’t and can’t understand, so don’t put them and yourself in a situation like that one again. It’s not worth it, but it also isn’t worth losing friends – even ones who, thinking they were helping, actually caused pain. The key is that they thought they were helping. They sucked at it, but they tried. Give them credit for that – but stay away from it in the future.

Thanks Ray and others that responded. Deep down i know that is good advice. It always puzzles me why i lean towards the couple in question when i have questions or am in my “dark period”. I have spoken before about how they have upset me. I know they mean well, but if you could have heard how they yelled at me…it still has me rattled. I know deep down they are fearful i will leave the church. I have come closer than i ever have before in the past few months. I did find one friend to talk to that actually was sympathetic and gave a good ear. I dont know if the stress of my health issues are causing me to stray further from the church, or if stress from the church is causing me to feel overwhelmed with what is going on in my life. I am so overwhelmed right now i dont even have the energy or desire to read my scriptures or pray. I honestly dont know why i struggle so much. I wish i could take a magic pill and be the perfect latter day saint. I just feel like such a failure compared to others i know. And the solutions seem so simple. I think i may finally be on the verge of losing what is left of my testimony. This is caused me such heartache, i cant explain it enough.

[wornoutsneakers]

On Own Now wrote:

Rather than confront anyone on this, I’d ask to do sharing time, and in my sharing time, I would fill it with why it’s so good to do good. Positive, uplifting, beneficial. Then I’d ask to do sharing time again and I’d strongly consider using the same game board shown above, but change the title to “name that blessing”, and I’d focus on things like how we feel inside when we do good and how doing good helps other people… I’d keep repeating the cycle of asking to do sharing time and then doing an uplifting ST… until the tone of your primary changes.

OON,

I dont know that F_C can really do this? In my ward only a member of the Primary Presidency can teach the Sharing Time Lesson…and that would be either the President or 1st or 2nd Counselor. We have a rotating schedule where one member of the Presidency takes turns either conducting each session for the younger and older Primary while of the other another member teaches the Sharing Time lesson, the third member of the Presidency acts as a helper for the classrooms. It is very structured. I dont believe you can teach that lesson without being called? The only exception is on Fast Sunday where a member of the Bishopric teaches the Sharing Time lesson.

[wornoutsneakers]

I just had a conversation about this very topic with with a fellow church member. My friend disclosed that they were told by the SP that conversion isnt the hot topic anymore, retention is. Missionaries are now encouraged to make sure they convert at least two people in every household. The thinking is that if the new member has at least one other person in their home that joins that they will have a better liklihood of staying active. Church leadership feel that too many converts lean on the missionaries and dont make the connection with the other ward members. Then when the missionaries move or go home…the converts stop coming to church because they dont have anyone to help them. This can also be seen in the new approach missionaries have of wanting investigators to read on their own to find answers to their questions or to discover truths in the scriptures. I found out about that many months ago.

[wornoutsneakers]

I have spent the majority of the time since i joined the church in callings working with children. Most of the ideas for projects can come from sites like sugardoodle.net where you get fun or crafty ideas to help with a lesson concept. I would take the time to reach out to this teacher and ask where they are getting their ideas and try to learn more about how they approach a lesson. Maybe you will find they are just copying something they just saw off the internet and dont really put alot of thought into what they are teaching, maybe the opposite is true and they really want to drive home an idea or two. I would do this with an air of curiosity and maybe possibly in a friendly get-to-know-you-way. If their approach to subject matter makes you uncomfortable still i would then next approach the Primary President. Tell her your having your first child (hope i got that right) and have some concerns about how teachers are presenting concepts….maybe something along the lines like..you feel the negative is being enforced more than the positive. Maybe the Primary President is not aware and doesnt like it either. Doesnt hurt to ask. I wouldnt just avoid Primary all together. There can be alot good in Primary. Especially the music. I have heard from parents that didnt start coming to church until when their children were much older (and they were converts) that they wish they had started when their children were younger. I would remember too that the majority of learning comes from the home from the parents. Good luck. It can be hard enough trying to keep myself there and digesting what i’m told, i imagine its harder when you have children to think of.

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